As we have known for years, firefighters are really smart guys.

Kudos to those who declined to state their vaccination status. It's nobody else's business. Whatever happened to boundaries? I don't blame people for being resentful. The pandemic has been overblown. The sky isn't falling.

The data does not match the headline. 24% of law enforcement officers declined to state their vaccination status. That does not mean they are not vaccinated - it means they wish to maintain their privacy. Assuming that all 24% are not vaccinated is just as folly as assuming they are all vaccinated.

There is no excuse for not stating whether you are vaccinated or not on an anonymous survey. There is no privacy issue.

If an officer has chosen to protect and serve with the PAPD, that includes not passing on a preventable lethal disease to the public. Vaccinations should be required for the safety of other officers too.

> Kudos to those who declined to state their vaccination status. It's nobody else's business.

>>There is no excuse for not stating whether you are vaccinated or not on an anonymous survey.

If the survey is anonymous, how is it a privacy issue?

And why are the police so reluctant to divulge this ANONYMOUS information as compared to members of the fire department and paramedics?

[Portion removed.]

Asking a personal question IS a privacy issue, whether the survey is anonymous or not. Police officers have the GUTS to tell others it's none of your business, and it isn't.

Why are the police so reluctant? I can't speak for police officers, but it is a well known fact that police are under constant attack, and it gets old.

If you're fully vaccinated, worry about yourself and mind your own business when it comes to the vaccination status of others. [Portion removed.]

* Police officers have the GUTS to tell others it's none of your business, and it isn't.

^ The police also seem to rely on that excuse when brutalizing suspects of color.

For public safety officers who interact with the public on a regular basis, a little pinprick should not pose that much of a controversy over 'anonymous privacy'...any oxymoron in itself.

What else are the police trying to conceal?

Oh right...it's none of our business until the police get caught doing something wrong or illegal.

The fact is that PAPD gets their information from right-wing extremists, so much so that they pushed our prior mayor into imposing an unnecessary curfew. Those same extremists are pushing antivax propaganda, and that's why much of the PAPD has refused vaccination, putting themselves and our community at risk.

Courts have started upholding mandatory vaccination. I urge city council to mandate vaccination for first responders and city staff who interact with the public in any way.

I agree with No Heat. Since we have no choice about interacting with PAPD and run the risk of getting shot if we ignore them, it's high time for these irresponsible, ignorant and possibly infectious cops to get put on unpaid leave since they obviously don't believe in "protecting and serving" us.

If they still refuse to get vaccinated, just fire them and save us some money,

Remind them that Trump and his family were self-protective enough to get vaccinated back in January while gleefully endangering the rest of us.

PAPD not getting fully vaccinated means their officers are at risk of helping spread the Delta Variant. Is public safety the priority or making a political statement?

We all know why cops are not getting vaccinated. Many of them exhibit a macho demeanor, they buy into Trump/GOP Law & Order lie, despite the Jan 6th insurrection where police were subjecxted to vicious attacks by Trump supporters. Most cops are male, and data shows that men are less likely than women to be immunized. Cops have also expressed concern over the novelty of the approved COVID-19 vaccines, as well as the speed with which they were developed, despite ample evidence that the vaccines are a safe and healthy route to eradicating COVID-19. (I wonder where they heard that? Tucker Carlson no doubt, lies over science, pathetic). It is despicable that cops will not reveal their vaccine status, they should be fired as they are a danger to the people they serve.

Those first responders who refuse to be vaccinated without medical reasons should be fired. Period. They are a public danger.

> Police officers have the GUTS to tell others it's none of your business, and it isn't.

^ I have to disagree Jennifer.

'To serve and protect' is the slogan of most PDs and protecting the public from a pandemic also falls under this decree.

> The fact is that PAPD gets their information from right-wing extremists, so much so that they pushed our prior mayor into imposing an unnecessary curfew. Those same extremists are pushing antivax propaganda, and that's why much of the PAPD has refused vaccination, putting themselves and our community at risk.

^ This comes as no big surprise.

> it's high time for these irresponsible, ignorant and possibly infectious cops to get put on unpaid leave since they obviously don't believe in "protecting and serving" us.

^ Only when Krispy Creme and Dunkin' Donuts require proof of vaccination will ALL badge-carrying members of the law enforcement cult get innoculated.

I'm not saying police officers shouldn't be vaccinated. I'm fully vaccinated, and being fully vaccinated is the responsible thing to do. I do think it's a personal decision.

What I AM saying is the vaccination status (of any of us) is private. We don't talk about the negative status of STDs, whether or not you've had a flu or shingles vaccination, or the status of your latest mammogram. Yet society is overly concerned with the Covid vaccination status of everyone, and it needs to stop. We're all entitled to our privacy, and if you're that concerned about a police officer -- don't put yourself in a situation to interact with the police. Don't break the laws, traffic or otherwise.

24% who declined to state could all be vaccinated, or none of them. On an anonymous survey anyone could be lying or telling the truth, and the same goes for in person.

There is no guarantee my name is Jennifer. My name could be Bob, Mike or Mary...

"We don't talk about the negative status of STDs, whether or not you've had a flu or shingles vaccination, or the status of your latest mammogram."

Sure we do, My friends nagged me into getting my shingles vaccinations after explaining why I needed it. And we certainly talk about the status of our latest mammograms either because we're relieved we're ok or upset and need comfort because we weren't.

[Post removed.]

Between the uncertain vaccine status and the whiny lawsuit over a temporary mural, my trust in the judgment of PAPD officers has certainly diminished of late.

" Do people have any legal recourse against big pharma or the city if they’re hurt by the jab? "

What legal recourse do the 900+ Secret Service members infected with Covid due to the loud and proud refusal of Trump & Company to mask up? Or the families of all those clerks KILLED or assaulted by the Trumpers defending "their rights"?

[Post removed.]

Are you denying that under Trump 900 Secret Service staff were infected? The same guy who called Covid a "hoax" also claimed you could kill it by injecting bleach and people died from those irresponsible claims, too!

Are you denying clerks have been assaulted and killed by people refusing to mask up? And that aggressive fools have intentionally coughed on people while claiming to have Covid?

Are you denying that the Delta variant is causing another surge which has caused California and elsewhere to re-institute rules to mask up inside?

Are you denying that when Biden called out Fox and Facebook for their misinformation that's literally killing people that even the likes of Sean Hannity are now backtracking and urging people to mask up? Of course this is after Dr. Fauci has had to provide security for himself and his family from these moronic thugs.

Feel free to check the headlines today on Google News and elsewhere,

Methinks it's not a matter of critical thinking so much as outright lying when you dispute facts. Now please rush right out and claim you're pro-life! Hah!

[Post removed due to deletion of referenced comments.]

"We don't talk about the negative status of STDs, whether or not you've had a flu or shingles vaccination, or the status of your latest mammogram."

@Jennifer

Some do...folks will sometimes ask, "did you get your flu shot?" Now as to whether this is a genuine concern or merely small talk, who knows?

And the two-dose shingles vaccination is is aimed towards curtailing a subsequent virus related to chickenpox.

No shame or embarrassment there.

As for STDs (sexually transmitted diseases), the name was changed from venereal disease (VD) to reduce any stigma so your argument holds absolutely no water considering that back in the late 1980s, the AIDS epidemic conveyed to the entire world that there is no shame in a person's sexual orientation...unless one views the world as a bigot or a follower of religious dogma.

That said, it is no wonder the police as a whole are viewed by many outsiders as not the brightest bulbs.

The reporting (cumulative not individual) is being done by the various government units (e.g., City of Palo Alto). Vaccination status does not seem to be in answer to a survey by a third party but rather a question asked by their employer (the government unit) and employers legally do have the right to certain health information when it pertains to the job (and lowering significantly the chances of employees spreading a dangerous disease to members of the public or fellow workers [note unvaccinated people still have to quarantine for 10 days if in close contact with someone with Covid-19 and it is not as though police or firefighters can work from home]). They have the option not to answer at this time but effectively those doing so should be treated as though they were not vaccinated (required to quarantine if exposed, perhaps assigned so not too many people not known to be vaccinated are clumped together). At some point they may be required to vaccinate (barring medical exemption).

I'm not surprised at all that firemen have significantly higher vaccination status than cops. Let's just say that I'd trust a fireman to "do the right thing" far, far more than a cop. They have markedly different attitudes toward their obligations to promote public safety and to act in a way to promote "the greater good" for the people whom they serve. Firemen want to help and save people. Cops concentrate on disciplining them.

[Post removed.]

"Firemen want to help and save people. Cops concentrate on disciplining them."

Well said Mr. Hitchins.

The bullying attitude is also more prevalent among cops.

[Portion removed.]

When I was referring to talking about "medical status" I'm not referring to personal conversations with family and friends. I'm referring to society being too noisy into the status of everyone.

When is the last time nurses we're asked by the general public -- what's your flu shot status? [Portion removed.]

[Post removed.]

"Okay. Anyway, deaths are down as I stated. Not gonna waste my time with the rest."

Deaths are up again. Irrefutably. Up dramatically in Florida and other GOP states. Fortunately, deaths usually hit those who refused to get vaccinated. Unfortunately, these irresponsible criminals still infect their families, health care workers and others.

You're "not gonna waste <your> time with the rest" after wasting OURS with your fact-free alternate reality? Color me shocked.

@John Sounds like you didn't get the memo. Fox and other right-wing outlets finally figured out that stochastic bioterrorism against their supporters is a bad idea, and flipped from antivax to telling people to get vaccinated earlier today: Web Link Web Link

Could not disagree with Jennifer more strongly.
Cops who refuse to get vaccinated should be terminated. They need to find another line of work. It's obvious that "serve and protect" is not their creed.
The right to privacy is not infinite. When you are operated upon by a surgeon, you need to know they really are licensed and qualified. And an unvaccinated surgeon would not be permitted to operate.
The role of police is similar. They often have to work in close quarters with others.
They need to be vaccinated. Or find another line of work.

Do the police have a contract that says that can't be required to be vaccinated?
It sounds like lax management if it can't even get their employees vaccinated up to the
level of the surrounding community. Are these the type of people we want policing
Palo Alto? With Palo Alto's budget problems, enforcing vaccinations as a public safety
measure would be an effective way to reduce the police department payroll.
If the police chief can't make this happen, that is grounds for dismissal.

Palo Altans should be thankful they don't live in Los Angeles. According to the LA Times (June 19, 2021) 51% of firefighters are vaccinated, 52% of police officers, and LA County Sheriff, 33%. Wow.

While googling , I read 50-55% was the norm for police officers and firefighters across the country. Or at least in the articles I found online.

Since men are much more likely to be police officers and firefighters, and men are less likely to get vaccinated, perhaps it's more of a gender issue than line of work.

The real issue is why are men less likely to get vaccinated?

"Since we have no choice about interacting with PAPD and run the risk of getting shot if we ignore them, it's high time for these irresponsible, ignorant and possibly infectious cops to get put on unpaid leave since they obviously don't believe in "protecting and serving" us."

✓If the police are unwilling to get fully vaccinated, they should all be forced to wear rubber gloves, face masks and full face shields while on duty even though the rest of the vaccinated public is allowed to go about mask-free.

And while this measure might impair their ability to shout down suspects or consume donuts, personal containment might be the only option given their stubbornness regarding Covid-19 innoculations.

In lieu of getting vaccinated, having to wear a dark blue haz-mat suit would also add to their sartorial splendor.

All of this (mandatory face masks, plastic face shields, rubber gloves, and an official Covid-19 uniform) would make the PAPD look even more ominous...like a bunch of Darth Vaders driving around in squad cars.

And why not?

The CDC reported that 48% of the American population is now fully vaccinated against Covid-19.

At 60%, the PAPD is significantly above the national average.

Instead of chastising the PAPD, we should be commending them for their due diligence.

As for the other 40%, perhaps they are awaiting FDA approval or further confirmation of safety and efficacy.

I stand behind the PAPD for their common sense approach and I will not be getting vaccinated unless the vaccine is proven to be 100% effective against Covid-19 and 100% safe.

[Portion removed.]

"Infect and Serve"

“unless the vaccine is proven to be 100% effective against Covid-19 and 100% safe /Why take the risk on an unproven vaccine?
/We are not human guinea pigs for Big Pharma”

No vaccine in history has ever been 100% effective. So good luck with that. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are practically 100% effective. As widely reported 99.5% of deaths occurring are among the unvaccinated. [Portion removed.] You demand 100% protection but are apparently walking around unvaccinated so you currently have 0% protection. These Vaccines have been proven safe and effective through rigorous studies. [Portion removed.] Good luck to you running around unvaccinated as the highly transmissible delta variant continues to spread. [Portion removed.]

Web Link

Finally to your point that 60% of the police are vaccinated and should be commended because it is above the national average, that is also false. All city employees should be fully vaccinated or fired as they now pose a threat to public safety. Last night Pasadena mandated that all city employees must be fully vaccinated. More vaccine mandates will soon follow in every sector once the vaccines receive full approval from the FDA.

It's public health, safety and privacy issue. If you're that afraid of a virus, stay home.

California is doing better than most states. We're #13 out of 50. Whites and Asians are vaccinated at a higher rate. Women higher than men. You can't force people to be responsible. You can fire them, but someone else will hire them, and then what?

The United States is vaccinated at 48.7% as of July 19, 2021. Which means half of Americans don't care. All the incentives, lotteries, etc. won't do any good if someone doesn't want the vaccine. This is still a free country, and tyrannical mindsets make the situation worse. Nobody likes a tyrant.

On that note, how many are HIV positive? The community deserves to know!

Pasadena, CA, City Council just required all city employees to be vaccinated, noting that residents have no choice over which cop or firefighter or home inspector gets sent out away and shouldn't have to worry about their own safety when dealing with a city employee.

High time for Palo Alto to do the sane.

Also, big financial firms like Morgan Stanley, Goldman and about 50 others are moving closer to making it a requirement. Apple, realizing how serious this latest strand is, has delayed forcing workers back to the office for at least a month,

San Francisco has required all employees to be vaccinated and the police union came out in favor of it. They did fire a few city employees who previously refused to wear masks.

Pasadena and San Francisco requirement -- when vaccines receive "full federal approval." When will that be? As it stands now, without FDA approval...

[Post removed.]

[Portion removed.] It is a “free country” but we are not living through normal times. We are living through the greatest public health crisis in a century. The normal rules of a free society will not apply because we live in a capitalistic society. The economic disruption that has been going on since March 2020 will not be sustained or tolerated by our Government now that vaccines are available. On Monday the Dow Jones dropped 700 points prompting Mitch McConnell to implore people “to get shots into their arms” and prompting that other news outlet to start flipping their stances about vaccinations. A sick and diseased society can not function economically. The vaccines are presented as the silver bullet out of the pandemic. With only a 48% national uptake of vaccines you will start to see more Government mandates likely in about two months if more people don’t voluntarily go get vaccinated. The White House is likely hesitant to impose anything on a national level right now and still want to present the vaccine as a “choice.” Sure, there may be arguments about “Government overreach ” and “tyranny” but it won’t matter. It will still be mandated. The pandemic is wearing on vaccinated people that want to get back to normal and are angry people won’t get vaccinated. It’s basically prolonging the pandemic and putting others at risk for a new vaccine resistant variant. The flip side will be since people are basically refusing the vaccines, with Delta we may reach herd immunity through a combination of vaccinations (50%) and mass infections (30-40%) instead of directly through vaccinations alone anyway. All public employees that interact with the public must be vaccinated so as not to pose the danger of infecting people with, and further spreading a potentially fatal pathogen.

People...if the FDA approves the Covid-19 vaccines, Big Pharma would then become liable for any number of class action suits. We'll let the lawyers decide how many.

Minus FDA approval but with CDC recommendations, you are talking big money with no liability.

Meanwhile Pfizer is trying to promote Covid #3 as a booster for the Delta variant at a proposed $26B but the CDA advised holding off for the time being.

Follow the money trail as there are big bucks to be made off the pandemic.

And full FDA approval would only open the door for potential lawsuits and nobody wants that...except lawyers.

BTW...I am a pharmacologist.

"All public employees that interact with the public must be vaccinated so as not to pose the danger of infecting people with, and further spreading a potentially fatal pathogen."

Add to that ALL employees at retail stores and restaurants.

The PAPD will be a tougher nut to crack.

Maybe the PAPD position is based on political stance.

A recent CBS News poll found 34% of Republicans say they will not be vaccinated against the coronavirus. Independents aren't too far behind, with 30% refusing the shots, while only 10% of Democrats say they'll abstain. Republicans are the least likely to say "yes," they will get the vaccine or "already did" — 42% — compared to 46% of independents and 70% of Democrats.

source: Web Link

Maybe the PAPD needs to initiate an incentive program with pay raises and promotions for every officer who gets vaccinated.

Palo Alto could then become the first city in the nation where every police officer is at least a Captain while drawing salaries of $200K+ per annum including CalPers.

Since the survey was anonymous the reported 60% vaccination number could be even lower.

[Portion removed.]

You think reducing PAPD compensation to $200K would be an incentive? Check the salaries -- and benefits -- of city employees.

> You think reducing PAPD compensation to $200K would be an incentive?

I've read that the Palo Alto cops exceed their base salary by working overtime.

It must be very stressful given the public's overall lack of respect for them.

But the allure of money can be intoxicating + they get to hassle more people.

This added interaction with the public is even more reason to be fully vaccinated.

[Post removed due to same poster using multiple names]

The incentive should be them keeping their jobs and not being fired on the spot. Absolutely disgraceful. Though very on brand coming from the PAPD!

The city council has a duty to protect public welfare.
Thus: Public employees should be required to be vaccinated, or be terminated.

All services funded by the public should have this requirement, as should hospitals. A vaccination is not a private matter, it's a moral response to a public health emergency, like polio vaccines, mumps, measels, and rubella. Thus: an unvaccinated employee should be given a chance to get vaccinated or be terminated because in this case the public health emergency IS more important than individual choice.

I would even go a step further at this point: I don't think taxpayer money should pay the salaries of or be spent on the medical care for anyone who has had the opportunity to get vaccinated and who has refused. Unvaccinated people who are holding a "principled stance" against government intrusion don't deserve taxpayer (government) support for their jobs or hospitalization. The logical end to vaccine resistance is to require unvaccinated people to pay out of pocket for their own medical care and for those they have infected.

Please get the vaccine.

This conversation in the comments proves that humankind is doomed to fail. Why on earth would they not get vaccinated? Or not report that they did. Public servants have a responsibility to not spread a deadly communicable disease and to give the public the confidence that they won’t by providing their vaccination status.

People like Jennifer are playing with fire here by stating that they shouldn’t have to disclose. [Portion removed.]

Get vaccinated, folks! Our children are counting on us.

For whatever reason liberals are more fearful of Covid and they have been all along. It's a difference in thought process. If you're fully vaccinated, you shouldn't fear the vaccination status of others because vaccines are very effective. You're not protected 100%, but the protection has been made clear.

Of course it's a good idea to be fully vaccinated, but not everyone is dealing with an anxiety disorder related to Covid. And a lot of us believe in letting others make their choices in life, and we believe in respecting the privacy of others. And respect for ourselves.

I was curious...when it comes to opposition against the Covid-19 vaccines, why is it mostly the under-educated, fundamentalist Christians, white Republican conservatives, ardent Trump supporters, and red state/neck types who are so adamantly against any form of pandemic-related innoculation?

That said, the PAPD reluctance to fully disclose its actual vaccination status anonymously comes as no big surprise.

To date, there have been very few (aka none) intelligent people in the media, medicine, or science actively condemning the current Covid-19 vaccines despite the fact that FDA approval has not yet been issued.

Only the extreme right-wing [portion removed] are expressing their discontent and paranoia.

Wow...I just answered my own question!

“ If you're fully vaccinated, you shouldn't fear the vaccination status of others because vaccines are very effective.”

False. Some people ask the question, “If vaccines work, why do unvaccinated people present a risk to those who have been vaccinated?” Two simple facts contribute to this answer. First: Vaccines aren’t 100 percent effective. So even some people who are vaccinated will still be at risk. Second: The greater the number of unvaccinated people in a community, the more opportunity germs have to spread. This means outbreaks are more difficult to stem and everyone is at greater risk of exposure — including vaccinated people.

Web Link

The vaccination status of others matters. Again, this is not a “privacy issue.” Currently the vaccines are presented as a “choice” but more vaccines mandates are coming. This morning more Bay Area counties began urging employers to require universal COVID-19 vaccination policies.

Web Link

You always seem to miss the fact that in a pandemic people’s choices and decisions effect other people in the community. It’s not normal times where everyone gets to “freely choose how they want to live their life.” For example, say you didn’t get your teenager vaccinated in summer, that teenager can cause a school outbreak. If a worker in a restaurant chooses to not get vaccinated they can infect their fellow employees.

[Portion removed.]

Even doctors and nurses don't have to disclose their vaccination status.

[Post removed.]

County health authorities are now recommending that employers mandate vaccination, with limited medical and religious exemptions.

Palo Alto, as an employer, should follow their recommendation.

Web Link

The ignorance, bias, and stereotyping displayed in these comments are appalling to me. I thought we were better than this.

Dobbs,,

Which comments are you referring to? It is not suitable to make a post slandering other posters generically without providing any support for your accusations.

In Singapore, 75% of the new patients who contracted the Delta variant were fully vaccinated and Stanford recently reported that seven students who contracted Delta/Covid were fully innoculated.

What gives? Are the vaccines potentially giving people the virus or being rendered ineffectual against the new variant?

Dr. Fauci says contracting Covid-19 despite being fully vaccinated is normal and it will prevent either a severe case of coronavirus or possible death.

So are we basically erring on the side of precaution by getting vaccinated?

Various privacy rights anti-vaxers have stated that the vaccines contain mini-microchips designed to track and control human society, a sole priority and objective of the power elite.

And while I find this notion somewhat preposterous, we do reside in an Orwellian world nowadays with the likes of Google, Facebook, and Amazon constantly tracking our everyday lives.

Maybe the PAPD officers prefer to maintain their personal privacy or do not want to miss work in the event they get vaccinated and fall ill from a vaccine that is supposed to prevent them from contracting Covid-19.

In any event, vaccination against Covid-19 in the United States will never reach Joe Biden's goal of 70%.

Most likely 60% at best which will insure a partial herd immunity with absolutely no guarantees of full immunity.

What is slanderous is name calling, sarcastic comments about those who aren't in agreement with most commenters vaccine opinions. Calling them uneducated, right wing secret society anti-vaxxers, etc. Fire them for not complying, etc are bullying tactics, of which the cops were also accused of. Fire those who don't follow the recommendations of the government officials who have not garnered my support or confidence the last year, is nuts. Show me a case where the cops have infected someone before we jump to firing people. When I read the article, only 6 percent said they weren't vaccinated, so the numbers could also be up to 94 percent compliance.

The government could mandate that all American residents be vaccinated against Covid-19 but this would open a can of worms including a potential landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision.

Opposition from fundamentalist religious groups, QAnon conspiracy theorists, semi-educated anti-vaxers, and right to privacy advocates would vehemently object to such a sweeping public health mandate.

And it would come down to a debate arguing the inherent rights of a private citizen VS protecting the public health of American society as a whole.

In Seattle, police and firefighters aren't asked their vaccination status because they're trying to avoid a "political firestorm." Seattle is very wise.

What people need to keep in mind is vaccinations won't prevent you from getting Covid. They will keep you from getting seriously ill. There's a difference.

Dobbs, everything you said is true. Keep in mind that's a reflection on them.

The cops should be required to show proof of vaccination when arresting and transporting a suspect to county jail as they are potentially endangering the health of another person.

No need for a survey.

The point of vaccines is not only to protect oneself, but to protect others. Isn't that what law enforcement is supposed to do? Isn't that our responsibility as human beings?
When a virus is allowed to fester in a population, it is able to evolve and we've seen what that can do. We're lucky it hasn't yet evolved to become more deadly. Every unvaccinated person is a potential host that lets the virus survive to the next generation.
It's humans against this virus, we should not fight each other. I believe it's every person's obligation to "take one for the team" and get vaccinated so we can be rid of this virus once and for all.

The PAPD is being reckless and irresponsible in their both reportage and alleged unwillingness to get fully vaccinated against Covid-19.

Whether this position is based on their religious beliefs, right-wing anti-vaxer leanings, or sheer ignorance is immaterial.

They have an obligation to protect the public [portion removed.]

Dear PAPD,

Getting vaccinated isn't just about protecting yourself from the virus. it is about protecting the people around you. Isn't that what you have SWORN to do?

Get vaccinated. I value your service, but this news undermines my trust in both your judgment and your commitment to the protection of the community.

Please do your duty to protect our community as the majority of us have done.

Thank you.

Upon completion of their Covid-19 vaccinations, police officers should be issued a little pin to wear on their uniforms certifying that they are safe to be around...figuratively.

And in the absence of police vaccination proof, all suspects should demand that a fully vaccinated officer complete the questioning and any subsequent arrest.

If this request were to be ignored, a neglect of public safety allegation could be levied against the police in a court of law providing a possible defense loophole citing extenuating and exigent circumstances if the suspect attempted to flee for his own safety.

The problem is that the police would most likely would pull out their service weapons and then the vaccination defense could never be fully utilized.

“What is slanderous is name calling, sarcastic comments about those who aren't in agreement with most commenters vaccine opinions. Calling them uneducated, right wing secret society anti-vaxxers, etc. Fire them for not complying, etc are bullying tactics/Keep in mind that's a reflection on them.“

So you, in turn get on and scold everyone that doesn’t agree with your politically correct “Kumbaya” opinion. This is a serious situation. There will be more mandates and repercussions for workers that do not get vaccinated. Today the New York Mayor began threatening vaccine mandates and an NFL assistant coach was let go for refusing the vaccine. Not to mention health care workers in Texas have already been fired for refusing the vaccine. It is not “bullying.”
This is the real world. Many of those statements (anti-vax/right wing etc.)about the people working on the police force are likely actually TRUE but of course it does not apply to the entire police force just a potential element of it. Currently, unvaccinated workers pose a grave danger to public health especially those that must interact with the public on a regular basis such as police officers. There is no need for “documentation” about police spread. If an officer is unvaccinated and infected they are spreading the coronavirus.
Downplaying the pandemic in any form and stating things such as “liberals fear Covid” is the real problem in the comment section. We are living through the greatest public health crisis in a century. Current projection models from the IHME have yet another peak in cases and deaths coming for the months of September and October due to the highly contagious Delta variant when unvaccinated kids return to school. The vaccinated are exhausted from the unvaccinated and want to get back to some semblance of normalcy and that is where some of the frustration you see in the comments are likely coming from. [Portion removed.]

We're all going through the same thing, and it's healthier to be calm and rational. You're ruminating, and it's unhealthy. Physical activity and eating healthy helps. Or call a friend. Maybe have some fun and try to take you mind off of things. I wish you well...

We're all looking at the same thing but seeing it incredibly differently. As has been said, "We'd still be fighting polio instead of eradicating if Fox News had existed then to rant and rave against vaccines."

Just today breast CANCER patients were violently attacked trying to get into the hospital to see their doctors. Why??? Because the hospital requires masks!

Since when has eating healthy and calling a friend cured the type of thuggery, brainwashing, lies and violence we're seeing now?

Sure, the January 6th mob were just "innocent tourists" and the FBI did a thorough probe of Brett Kavanaugh -- ignoring THOUSANDS of reports -- before putting him on the Supreme Court. Too bad about that Palo Alto doctor whose life was threatened and she had to leave town for her own safety.

Just eat your spinach and everything will be ducky.

Dobbs and Jennifer,

The facts are that Palo Alto is highly vaccinated and COVID cases are below the national average.
Places like Texas, Missouri, and Florida have low vaccination rates and have hospitals overflowing with patients.

Your alternate “reality” will lead to many thousands of unnecessary deaths. Those of us who accept true facts prefer to
live in a society in which the lives of all members are valued. [Portion removed.]

We live in a highly vaccinated, low Covid rate city, and we were fully vaccinated before vaccines were available in Santa Clara County. Where we differ is you're trying to control everything and everybody. You can't micromanage the lives of others. It's the reason we left Palo Alto. We can "breath" where we're living, but we still own our Palo Alto home. Palo Alto isn't the nice, charming town I grew up in. Everything is wrong, and everything needs fixing. The police, the City Council, PAUC, etc. etc. etc. Is it Palo Alto or the residents? Palo Altans need to take a long look at themselves. Palo Alto was mocked when we in Australia in 2017. What's going on that Australians are even thinking about Palo Alto?

If you "value" all people, stop trying to control everybody. Palo Alto has a terrible reputation, and it saddens me considering I've spent most of my life there. You don't here the same about Atherton, Woodside or Portola Valley. Even Palo Altans mock their own city. "Shallow Alto." I hope things get better.

Jennifer,

[Portion removed.] The fact that you consider that a positive makes it fortunate for all of us still in Palo Alto that you have left.

If you live among like-minded people, you will need more than luck when Delta bears down on your area.

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There will always be pandemics and natural disasters during the course of human existence and how we deal with them and those around us defines who we are as a society.

Fortunately we do not live in places like India or in 3rd world countries where pervasive ignorance + an overall lack of public sanitation and pre-emptive public health measures contribute to a plethora of communicable diseases.

In America we now have a surplus of Covid-19 vaccines and a significant number of unwilling participants to receive them.

And whether this decision is based on low IQ, religious dogma, assorted paranoias, or political leanings is the right of an individual BUT these folks have no right to infringe upon the health and well-being of others.

If a police officer who is hired to 'serve and protect' the public is unwilling to get vaccinated that is their personal choice BUT they should no longer remain on the force until the pandemic has been 100% curtailed via herd immunity or complete eradication.

And this same restriction should apply to any recalcitrant individual who serves the public at large (e.g. clerks, hairstylists, dentists etc.).

The PAPD is just trying to be difficult by declining to specify their actual vaccination status or by outright refusing to get vaccinated.

And it's no wonder that a sizable number of PA residents and outside observers have such a low opinion of them as a whole.

Instead of complaining about a long-gone mural, a 100% PAPD vaccination rate would be far more productive.

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Part of the problem lies with the fact that a well-rounded college curriculum is not required prior to serving on the police force.

A previous stint as a security guard or as a junior college police cadet is pretty much the pre-employment prerequisite along with a high school education.

As a result, cops are not inherent thinkers on a higher plane but trained to be reactionary in times of crisis.

And their herd mentality is pretty much dictated by the police union and internal peer pressures.

A more enlightened and better educated police force can reduce many of the societal and public health issues we are discussing.

° Part of the problem lies with the fact that a well-rounded college curriculum is not required prior to serving on the police force.

^ Police forces are a quasi-military provost operation and unless one is aspiring towards a higher administrative position or supervisory role, a college education (though invaluable) is not required.

In the military, the lower enlisted ranks (e.g. privates) are not trained nor expected to either lead other soldiers or to make key strategic military decisions.

And a basic police officer is no different.

They are just trained to take down and/or arrest suspects at their own discretion and therein lies the problem as a basic understanding of civil rights along with the 4th Amendment is oftentimes non-existent in their mental universe.

This is one if the primary reasons why the police departments are subject to so many lawsuits.

The officers often overstep their boundaries because they are not trained to cognitively think or to use less force whenever possible.

And so in many ways, it is the responsibility of their superiors to instill the positive values and behaviorial patterns required to serve the public in a manner that generates confidence and respect rather than contempt and derision.

It would be safe to assume that the PAPD doesn't really care what Palo Alto residents think regarding vaccinations and questionable police incidents.

They operate in their own world and have the backing of the police union, their superiors, judicial immunity, and the fiscal ability of the city to cover any lawsuits against them.

The police call the shots...both literally and figuratively.

Just back from South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Utah, and Colorado. Even though our bus tour guide would occasionally say something about the terrible Delta variant means we all should wear masks, I only wore a mask at the Denver airport. I could have, but chose not to, because I am vaxxed. That is my choice--Jennifer is right on this subject. By the way, every time the media whines about the percentages of vaxxed being too low, they should add those people who received their protective antibodies from getting and defeating the virus. This is the reason that unless we have a ventilator shortage again--which we don't, we should cheer/not fear increases in cases. This means more people will get vaxxed for fear of death, and/or the increased case defeaters are helping us achieve herd immunity. Anything else you hear from some people on my blue team, about how we should all wear masks indefinitely, is just a self-righteous/self-back-patting pose.

In case you are wondering, everyone on our tour bus was very inconsistent with mask wearing. I mean, when you eat or drink, your freed nose breaths in and out without the mask, doesn't it? The guide sometimes did, and sometimes did not wear a mask, like everyone. State by state, there were silly 'do this don't do that' signs on doors that NO ONE followed. Some had dates like in May, that were still up. Perhaps their state legislatures went on summer vacation and did not feel it was necessary to order them taken down. I tend to think, despite what some on my blue team argues about misinformation, it also comes from us too. It's like a youth football coach, worrying about team members being late, so he orders everyone to arrive at a game at least two hours before game time! Then, he strolls in about 40 min. before the game. He thinks (like my blue team) that there are so many stupid people out there that we have to exaggerate and even lie, in order to force them to do the right thing.

As usual, lots of logical fallacies flying around in this thread.

Bottom line:

Neighbors who are pediatricians at Stanford report Covid cases are rising. Anecdotally and exemplar: the typical case is a child under 12 (and so unvaccinated) who exhibits symptoms. Protocol requires the parents then be tested for SARS-CoV-2. Invariably, the vaccinated parents are infected, but without symptoms. Did the child give the parents the virus? Is the virus transmissible from the parents to others in our community? These are questions without, so far, a solid answer. So, the family is set into quarantine for (10 or 14, I forget the number) days.

Delta is in our community. The R0 for Delta is around 8.0, compared to 2.8 for 'plain' SARS-CoV-2. Meaning, the old herd immunity threshold was 70%, but for Delta it is 90%.

Meaning, if 100% of people are vaccinated with mRNA vaccines, which are 93% effective, then we will have achieved herd immunity, and the community is protected.

Unless, of course, our police force decides to only reach 60%. In which case, the virus will keep cycling through the community.

What's the simple answer? Require all employees to vaccinate, or provide valid medical reason why they cannot. (There is no religious exception, as the mRNA vaccines are not produced in any manner which offends religious dogma.) Give them until September 1 to comply; because as we head into winter, rates are going to skyrocket unless we get virtually everyone vaccinated. After that, termination.

The alternative is to have PD staff get PCR tested every two to four days.

And, they must all have the California app for virus exposure notification, running on their phones, and activated.

Combined with PD's behavior stemming from the Alvarez incident; and, including the recent 'harassment' lawsuit; this latest affront is another stick-in-the-eye, from PAPD to the public. When will Council take substantive action? All actions to date amount to virtually nothing.

Why was Palo alto one of the first school districts to allow kids back into in-person learning despite the Covid risks? For the same reason, all this rhetoric about the dangers but no teeth to the argument.

@Dobbs There is no national database tracking cases in schools. In fact, schools have been promoted as a “bastion of safety” during the pandemic. This is being done for the purpose of the economy so that parents can drop their kids off and go to (basically) unsafe workplaces to produce corporate profits. It also isn’t in the best interest of schools to admit they are having outbreaks because of funding. Regardless, the virus has mutated into the more transmissible Delta variant. Scientists are stating that the Delta variant is more transmissible than Smallpox(but not as lethal as smallpox). R0 is the “basic reproduction” value. For smallpox in the 1970’s it was about 3.5-4.5. The Ro of the Delta Variant is estimated at between 5-8. So the Delta variant may be up to 2x more transmissible than smallpox. So what does that mean for the new school year? Do you think there won’t be cases in schools?
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@JohnS-I’ve read the same thing from you quite a few times about you being “fully vaxxed” and not wearing a mask. I mean, congratulations! I’m happy for you! Just so you know, there are talks about bringing mask mandates back for everyone whether vaccinated or not. I would guess this may happen with in a week or two depending on the trajectory of the pandemic. [Portion removed.]

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The Spanish Flu of 1918 killed over 50 million people from 1918-1920 and then it mysteriously subsided (though it is still with us today having manefested itself into variants of the seasonal flu).

It came in four waves with the 1st through 2nd being the most deadly. The fourth variant was milder with fewer casualties.

Some scientists believe that herd immunity to the Spanish Flu was achieved by its large number of related deaths and the natural immunity passed on from those who survived the pandemic.

An actual vaccine for the Spanish Flu was developed roughly 20 years later.

That said, we are most likely experiencing the predicted second wave of the coronavirus (Delta variant) and like in the Spanish Flu, the Delta variant will be a major infector and killer.

Survival via natural selection and the avoidance of unecessary and frivolous social gatherings (SIP) will provide the most protection in addition to getting vaccinated.

And you heard it here first...

There will be more closures, a reinstatement of mask requirements, and stay-in-place advisements within the upcoming month/months..

And we will become a nation further divided by the vaccinated and unvaccinated.

A bad moon is rising.

Is the Lamda variant from Peru the third wave of the coronavirus?

@John B. Sails/a resident of Midtown:

FYI...there is no free speech (applicable 1st Amendment rights) when it comes to a public online forum.

Since the forum is owned and operated by a private entity, the moderators have the inherent right to censor, remove, and/or edit any opinions submitted by outside contributors.

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I like the Palo alto Police. They have a difficult job that I would not want to do myself. 60 percent plus the ones who almost certainly had vaxxes, but did not want to publicly announce it, PLUS those who naturally defeated the virus, plus the ones who are young and fit from chasing bad guys over fences, and so forth, is probably pretty good. I am blue but do not want them de-funded.

Thanks for your public service.

A macho-minded police officer shouldn't have a problem with a little pinprick.

Just ask anyone who has been shot or tasered by the cops.

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A devout faith in God will get us through this health crisis and heaven awaits those who have passed before us.

We are playing it safe by having only one shot of Moderna combined with our faith in prayer. This we believe to be an intelligent compromise giving both entities an equal opportunity to intervene and protect us.

We are not all under-educated hicks in the Central Valley as a belief in both God and science = the winning team!

You should see this HBO thing called "Music Box, Woodstock 1999, Peace, Love, & Rage." Mass conformity is a terrible thing.

1. You are conflating the steps needed to handle the public health crisis with issues of protecting individual freedom. That’s the misinformation that is being spread by that news outlet and certain “leaders.” That somehow Government and Big Pharma are all up to “something sinister.” You think you are seeing through something but you are not. If this was all some set up or plan to chip away at your individual freedoms, then our Government really went to great lengths to do it by shutting down the country and throwing us in an economic recession. Obviously, our system is capitalism, so why would they do this? It makes no sense. It sounds like the shutdowns and health advice is being given to try to save U.S. lives. Also, if this was some great set up why are other countries also suffering? Do you think people in Japan or India are “in on it” due to American politics? The steps are pretty clear. We need a concerted effort of people masking up and getting vaccinated. But of course this mindset you are posting about is held by a large portion of the country so we are still in the COVID cycle and are due for another wave and are not moving forward out of this. It’s not conformity or control, it is about solidarity. It is missing now. Our country is too divided.

2. Of the 1,054 cases of Delta infection through the middle of May, a preliminary analysis that has not yet been peer-reviewed found that one dose of the Pfizer vaccine was 33% effective at preventing symptomatic infection. This data would likely be similar with Moderna. Please get the second shot. If you have had only one of the two required doses of the mRNA vaccines, then you should finish vaccination by getting the second shot. That will raise your COVID-19 protection from what might be as low as 33% better than an unvaccinated person up to 90%. Please don’t leave it to faith. I’m concerned.

3. The point of my last post was that smallpox was eliminated through vaccination.

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It is unfortunate that the vaccines can only be administered by innoculation.

An oral dose (like the Sabin polio vaccine) would have garnered more participation.

If pro-biotics, anti-biotics, vitamins, and CBD can be taken this way, why not the Covid-19 vaccines?

Administering a Pfizer or Moderna laced gummy bear would also be far easier and faster to distribute.

The general rationale and consensus among those who refuse to get vaccinated is that if most of the others get vaccinated, then the unvaccinated people will eventually be protected due to an emerging herd immunity + the vaccinated folks will be automatically protected from the unvaccinated population.

A win-win for both sides regardless of varying opinions pro or con.

In all honesty, none of us know why the unvaccinated are unvaccinated. Pressuring people will backfire, and so will misinformation. Unless you're an MD or a scientist...

The anti-vaxers take great glee in opposing MDs and scientists. That's why they violently attacked the breast cancer patients trying enter the hospital that required masks to see their MDs. That's why the came back a second time -- to do it again!

Web Link

There appears to be two schools of thought...

The pro-vaxers who believe that once fully vaccinated, a return to normal (sans any further precautions) is OK.

And the anti-vaxers who do not trust Big Pharma, the CDC, and science for reasons of their own.

Both groups are full of horsefeathers.

"The pro-vaxers who believe that once fully vaccinated, a return to normal (sans any further precautions) is OK."

You're twisting what's being said. Why?

Most of us can read the articles that explain that fully vaccinated people can still get infected albeit at a much lower rate and with much less severity than those who aren't vaccinated.

That's why we're increasingly told to protect ourselves by again masking up and why employers are increasingly and belatedly forcing workers to get vaccinated.

I don't know if Demetrius is twisting what's being said, but he's seeing things in black and white. There's a lot of gray area. I do agree with the rest of what Online Name is saying.

"Both groups are full of horsefeathers."

Extremist mentalities (i.e. the lunatic fringe) are generally full of horsefeathers but to each his/her own.

That said, though I am fully vaccinated against Covid-19 (Pfizer/May-June 2021),
I would rather endure the sufferings of the coronavirus AND DIE rather than be forced to live the remainder of my later life dehabilitated by dementia or Alzheimer's Disease.

It's time to start requiring vaccinations for more activities, like flying, attending crowded activities. Everyone got the smallpox vaccine. How is this different?

In France, vaccination passports will soon be required to enter cafes, shops, boarding trains, and attending sporting events.

This measure was mandated by President Macron and to date, 1 million people have made appointments to receive their first innoculation.

What if the police said, "I'll wear whatever clothes I like to work and I'll cut my hair when I feel like it. Asking me to wear a uniform is an infringement on my liberty"? We would all be, like, get another job. Some people have a twisted view of liberty and freedom in this country. Kudos to the firefighters, and to everyone who cares as much about the lives of others as their own.

- What if the police said, "I'll wear whatever clothes I like to work and I'll cut my hair when I feel like it.

Maybe they were undercover detectives?

- Asking me to wear a uniform is an infringement on my liberty"?

If on duty, no...if off duty, probably.

All things considered, a 60% vaccination rate among the PAPD is a pretty good number compared to places like Haiti and Myanmar where the overall vax rates are 3% or less.

> places like Haiti and Myanmar where the overall vax rates are 3% or less.

You cannot compare what POTUS45 once referred to as s-hole countries to a modern, educated municipality like Palo Alto.

Besides, who in their right mind would want to live in or visit Haiti or Myanmar in the first place?

Most of our valued officers are committed to serve and protect. Evidently, some are committed to serve, protect and infect.

The variants are evolving into a real problem out there. Get with the program PAPD. Step up and protect us as we are protecting you by getting vaccinated and masking. It's just not that hard.

If the PAPD vaccination rate fails to reach 100%, the unvaccinated officers should be relieved of duty.

Any word yet from the City on requiring all police to be vaccinated?

As per today's New York Times article entitled "Who Can Make You Get A Covid Vaccine?"

Web Link

"Local and state governments can enforce a vaccination because of a legal precedent set by the 1905 Supreme Court ruling in Jacobson v. Massachusetts, which let states require their residents get smallpox vaccinations."

PAPD needs a house cleaning, with the unvaxxed, the police suing the city, and the racist incidents.

The Chronicle has a front page article about Palo Alto’s police lawsuits and racism, including the city’s resistance to building housing.

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Jennifer, When you posed this question, you expressed a level of unsophisticated thinking:
"The real issue is why are men less likely to get vaccinated?"
If you don't know the answer, you have a lot to learn.

Your postings reveal a level of innocence about what an epidemic is, how it works, and why people do what they do.

>> "The real issue is why are men less likely to get vaccinated?"

^ For the same reason many men refuse to go to the doctor unless something is really wrong (or too late).

Women as a whole tend to be more concerned about their personal health than men in general.

Men are especially sensitive when it comes to their urinary and penile issues (i.e. prostate, bladder, erectional dysfunction etc.).

No news is good news.

FYI- Web Link

In case you cannot access that page, here are the first couple sentences:
"According to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, 182 law enforcement officers died of COVID-19 last year. Add the 71 officers who have died in the first half of this year from the virus, and COVID is now the leading cause of law enforcement officer line-of-duty fatalities."

Many have commented about the police interactions with the community. Wouldn't a more appropriate question be how many have either been vaccinated or already had covid. Given they were required to interact with the public during the pandemic when no vaccines were available (rather than being able to protect themselves by staying at home like many of us) it is more likely that they have already been exposed at some point during the pandemic. I am fully vaccinated but I'm not sure what my choice would have been if I'd already had covid.

They city's failure to force PAPD (and other employees/consultants) to get vaccinated -- something they can control -- makes me less likely to believe the city's other pious preaching, virtue-signalling and hand-wringing on other subjects over which they have little or no control.