More anti-Columbus rhetoric.

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I think this is mostly fueled by indigenous peoples movements.

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These kids know their history far better than their critics do. Columbus was arrested and remanded to the Spanish royal court, in chains, for gross malfeasance in governing the early New World colony. Ferdinand and Isabella paroled their friend, and he went on to further mishaps, which could have been prevented had he been kept in jail. These kids, no liberals they, believe in the efficacy of tough sentences for reducing recidivism.

You people believe in three strikes, don't you? Well then, give the kids a hand.

The Stone Age is over. It was great while it lasted, but it's over and it isn't coming back.

If it wasn't Columbus, it would have been someone else. The desire to get to the East was in the mindset of the known world at that time and if nothing else, he proved to many at the time that the world was round. Many of his peers were expecting him to fall off the flat world. Give him credit for his endeavour, just like those that pioneered man's first trips to the moon. Oh yes, that is a conspiracey too.

"he proved to many at the time that the world was round"

No he didn't. The earth's roundness was common knowledge among the learned elite of Columbus' time. Eratosthenes had in fact measured its circumference some 1700 years earlier. Columbus merely attempted to exploit that property for commercial objectives.

Since his venture was government-funded, what Columbus really proved was the benefits of socialism, some 350 years before anybody heard of Karl Marx.

Wow. Asking kids to do their own critical thinking? What is the world coming to. *rolls eyes*

Columbus was a savage in the most modern meaning of the word and the Spanish conquistadors that followed him were even worse. It is ridiculous we have a day named after him, not only that but our government flaunts it as a great achievement. They were the beginning of the end for the native cultures that flourished in the America's. Good job for these kids understanding the true history of South and North America.

Students should also be told about the mass human sacrifices and cannibalism of the Aztecs and the the fact that the main reason the invasion of the region worked was with the help of the slaved minority tribes who where scared of being killed and eaten by the Aztecs.

I did not start this thread to argue whether Columbus was a good or a bad man. The most important thought is about children-led trials and how scary this is. I have seen it before in Soviet Russia. Children were encouraged to have "mock" trials of their classmates for "crimes" they committed against society, the crime could have been stealing a pencil or simply being a child of "enemy of the people".
That is what is scary - to make a mob out of children. This is not about critical thinking which of course needs to be encouraged, this is a more subtle moral issue which I have a hard time explaining, but children should not be encouraged to play "court" and "sentencing", they need to be taught that in court for justice eto be served there needs to be defense, plenty of facts from both sides, etc. I know I am not explaining this very well...

"the main reason the invasion of the region worked was with the help of the slaved minority tribes who where scared of being killed and eaten by the Aztecs"

The neighboring tribes joined Cortez because they hated the Aztecs arrogant imperialism. Lessons here for our own (thankfully) former administration and its minions.

Masha--what is scary?

"that is what is scary - to make a mob out of children."
Where were the children mad into a mob?

"children should not be encouraged to play "court" and "sentencing", they need to be taught that in court for justice eto be served there needs to be defense, plenty of facts from both sides, etc."

Do you know how there trials were conducted? Probably not.

And yes, you are not explaining it very well

Of course this isn't shocking at all, given what we know has happened to our education system, especially regarding history.

Basically, anybody white in our country's history has been bad, and deserves life in prison or worse, for any inventions or growth that happened as a result of their efforts. Ask any elementary or middle school teaches in the Public Education system if they are allowed to praise Washington on Washingtons' Bday, or Columbus on Columbus Day. We have turned into an education system which refuses to teach kids about all that is great about our history, only what is bad. There has been a concerted effort for the last 35 years to teach this hate of our country's history, to focus on the "bad" that can be "blamed", and it has come home to roost.

Columbus was the first bad white guy in this template, ..he brought the syphilis epidemic back to Europe from the American Indians, and started the exodus of bad white people to this Continent, which wiped out the peaceful, kind, Indian tribes all living in harmony with nature and each other.

Fast on the heels of that bad guy, came the rest of the bad guys, all white men of course, who fought the not as bad white guys in England ( they were just interested in the good of the people), and started the, so far, longest continuous democracy in the world. But they are all bad, if white, because we ignore the context of their times and culture, ignore the progress they made in their times and culture toward individual freedom for every person, and judge them by today's standard's. Anyone not white or male is celebrated ( as should be the case) if they invented something or helped make progress in our country, but very carefully is never mentioned are all the white men who supported and fought for the ability of the non-white or non-male person to get to where they got.

This is the result of our new and improved education system, fostered and grown by the marriage of 2 forces.

1) One Force is the big government entity called the Dept of Education established by last great Democrat President we had, and the only other USA President to win a Nobel Peace Prize for something the Nobel Committee hoped would happen, Carter.

2) The other Force is the National Education Association, the largest Union in the nation, which, of course, does what Unions do.

All this great education has come home to roost, and we are paying the price today. The good news is that such idiocy is now on full and open display for all Americans to see, and has mobilized many who had no idea so much had changed (for the worse) to get involved with the public education on a principal by principal basis.

Sorry, Masha, I forgot to tie it back to your point..and that is

YES..this is the aim of the "big government-Union" marriage agenda..the kind of government that Russia had for most of the last century. Same old tactics, for those of us with eyes to see...It as specifically taught as a set of educational aims beginning in the 60s until it is now so pervasive that most teachers, who are kind people, would be absolutely appalled to realize how they ahve been brainwashed into carrying out the goal.

Recommend reading for you to understand this better would be...hmm..probably best first book, though written with some hyperbole, would be by David Horowitz, a former Communist who woke up over the 70s and has been pushing back. The book he wrote called..I think it was "Indoctrination U", details nicely the history of how this has happened. Another one that will absolutely stun you is "The ProFessors" , about 101 Professors in our Universities today and what they teach...

Last, if you are interested in it, there is a group called FIRE which is dedicated to fighting the suppression of speech on any school campus, public or university...

I will try to find their website if you want.

The other thing to realise is that life back then was not valued as it is today. Women died in childbirth, children often did not survive beyond their 5th birthdays, a bout of flu could turn fatal, so could a simple accident resulting in injury, a broken arm or a serious cut getting infected often caused death. Those that could not work due to health or disability often died because of hunger. Compassion was left to very few good people and the law of the survival of the fittest was the norm. Life expectancy was about half what it is today and being learned or enlightened was not valued. Life was cruel, for almost everyone including the rich and royal. Political power and wealth were ideals of the masses and the race to get the gold and spices from the East were one of the driving forces. People ate to live and if the dodo bird became extinct, no matter because there are lots of other birds around to provide food.

Much of the history of this time is far from what we call pc today. We cannot judge history with our 21st pc values, they did not exist then and anyone who may have had them would not have survived. History is a study of what happened and why. It is not to be judged as either good or bad except as a lesson to not make the same mistakes again. All nations have episodes in their pasts which are not something to be proud of today. Teaching the facts without judgment is what we expect of education - critical thinking is commendable but onlyasfaras teaching personal opinions and awareness. Shakespeare wrote in his world view, so did Anne Frank and many others. Judging them by modern standards just doesn't work.

Columbus was a man of his time, not a man of our time. Don't treat him as a man of our time.

My gosh, Resident, you miss the point of teaching history!!!! It isn't to learn what was good so we can repeat it, nor to learn what went wrong so we don't repeat the mistakes...

The point is to push a world view and a political agenda ..that is all.

Maybe one day we will return to learning from history, and when we do that, students of history studying our times will just shake their heads at how foolish we are now.

Resident, critical thinking is crucial, not just commendable. If we don't think critically we embrace ignorance, are unable to learn, and fall prey to purveyors of false information and sloppy logic. It is entirely appropriate to explore the entire record of the past and judge whether it is acceptable or abhorrent to us -- otherwise we are ill-equipped to manage our lives.

And for Of course, I offer this quote "Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian." - Robert Orben, author (b. 1927)

I will try one more time to explain why classroom trials are so dangerous. It bears dark resemblance to Soviet system's mock classroom trials, Stalin style, there were schools where the children were encouraged to organize their own police, at classroom trials pupils were invited to write denunciations against pupils who had broken the school rules, publicly shame "enemies of people" whom they did not even know but were told by the teachers that they were the enemies. Some teachers in America believe that mock classroom trials encourage critical thinking, that they are effective tool of teaching history, but they are very inappropriate and even dangerous and mob-psychology-enducing.

One of the Leningrad schools staged a show classroom trial against the Beatles

Critical thinking is commendable and is crucial to teaching personal opinion and involvement in contemporary subjects. But critical thinking when studying history is only crucial in the context of what is happenning at the time. Hindsight is a good thing and using hindsight is good when looking for the lessons of history. But using hindsight to understand what the motivation for the events of history is not helping to understand history.

Stone age man needed to learn how to make fire. Before they could make fire they were completely different beings from those who had learned how to make fire. Trying to treat them as being the same is almost the same as trying to treat them the same as modern man. Making fire was such a phenomonal event in the history of time that it really divides history. Unfortunately, not all events in the progress of man was such a huge phenomonal change. Most changes occurred slowly but the before and after changes are just as important to remember when studying history, even when studying history critically. Otherwise, you may just as well use the Flintstones as ideas of what stone age man was really like.

Masha,

This is slippery-slope thinking. There's a long tradition in American schools of conducting mock trials (and, of course, they're standard protocol in law school). And why not? We use the legal system in this country to make laws and decide things. Just because the Soviet Union made a mockery of justice doesn't mean that kids imitating due process in this country leads to Soviet-style trials.

Our having a trial system in this country didn't make us become a satellite of the Soviet Union even though both countries had a version of "trials".

There are no children here being judged and condemned by other children and there's no sign that a classroom exercise to make history a little livelier would lead to this.

Americans are expected to understand the judicial system well enough to be part of it as a member of a jury--it's a citizen's responsibility and part of self-government--not Soviet tyranny.

Masha,

When I was in first grade, we did secret ballots for president-- this was premature. And in Junior High had all kinds of political debates in history, etc.-- maybe even a trial or two. Probably marginal. I guess what you are saying is that 4th graders are too young to study history critically. You are probably right-- probably it is better to put it off until Middle School at least, maybe even High School.

Still, if you put it off too long, you might grow up to have the idea, like "a resident" and "Resident" above, that Columbus' behavior was acceptable or understandable at the time. Well, actually, those who do want to study history critically, will discover that many contemporaries considered him a criminal. As it says in Wikipedia, "Consuelo Varela, a Spanish historian, states: 'Even those who loved him [Columbus] had to admit the atrocities that had taken place.' "

His reputation really didn't take off until the 19th century, when his expansionary vision fit the times so well, and it was convenient to overlook the fact that he enslaved and tortured people and denied them even the meager protections to which they were entitled at the time.

Resident, what does this mean? "Critical thinking is commendable and is crucial to teaching personal opinion and involvement in contemporary subjects. But critical thinking when studying history is only crucial in the context of what is happenning at the time. Hindsight is a good thing and using hindsight is good when looking for the lessons of history. But using hindsight to understand what the motivation for the events of history is not helping to understand history."

How else can you understand history? The lessons of history are contained in both the motivation for those events, as well as their context, the events leading up to them, and the outcomes of those events. What you say above is self-contradictory.

To those who equate the school trial of Columbus, please note that it was not a "show trial," there was a judge and a jury of 12, evidence was presented and the jury decided, just as happens in courtrooms all over this country. No children wrote Soviet-style denunciations.

Think people, think.

Dont forget that the 4th graders also sentenced Columbus to life in prison!

"the Soviet Union made a mockery of justice with classrtoom trials" , and I think classroom trials of Columbus by 4th graders are also mockery of justice.

I think I'm getting tired and I realise I am not making much sense.

History has to be studied as history, not current affairs. Getting into the mindset of historical attitudes helps to understand what was happening at the time. Using modern attitudes helps to learn from history. Two different concepts, two different lessons, two different ways of looking and learning from history.

Hopefully, this makes more sense than my last ramble.

What we learn from history is that we don't learn from history.

Columbus was not a revered figure in his time. As I pointed out above, he finished his life in disgrace. But over time the real Columbus was forgotten as a schmaltzy romantic legend supplanted the real story. Today he's such a demigod that our less thoughtful citizens reflexively trash all critics, even 4-th graders.

C'mon, people. Lighten up.

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, 15 hours ago:
"This is slippery-slope thinking. There's a long tradition in American schools of conducting mock trials (and, of course, they're standard protocol in law school). And why not? We use the legal system in this country to make laws and decide things. Just because the Soviet Union made a mockery of justice doesn't mean that kids imitating due process in this country leads to Soviet-style trials."

What you say above makes sense as far as it goes, BUT you don't look any further and that's the problem. There is a push to denigrate traditional celebrations for what Columbus accomplished. This denigration goes far beyond the evils of the explorers to include our founding fathers and other heroes/famous people in American history. And beyond that, in its extreme form "Western Civ" has got to go -- if it were only about including a more balanced and accurate historical picture that would be fine. But there are political reasons for this movement. And history often gets twisted into some other false way. This incident isn't just an exercise in critical thinking (which would be fine). It's part of a political movement, and I'd call it brainwashing.

4thefacts wrote:

" There is a push to denigrate traditional celebrations for what Columbus accomplished. This denigration goes far beyond the evils of the explorers to include our founding fathers and other heroes/famous people in American history. And beyond that, in its extreme form "Western Civ" has got to go -- if it were only about including a more balanced and accurate historical picture that would be fine. But there are political reasons for this movement. And history often gets twisted into some other false way. This incident isn't just an exercise in critical thinking (which would be fine). It's part of a political movement, and I'd call it brainwashing."

4thefacts, the word "denigrate" is generally deprecated, for good reason.

Regardless, anything in its "extreme form" is a problem, argued Aristotle in the Nichomachean Ethics. I don't see anyone in this discussion arguing that all Western Civilization has to go. Just that the veneration of Columbus has to go. He was not the person that 19th century mythology made him out to be.

As for the founding fathers, historians continue to study them, and while George Washington continues in good standing, John Adams stock has gone up considerably, while Jefferson's has suffered. John Quincy Adams is now recognized for his anti-slavery role (the recent HBO series is quite remarkable for attempting to actually depict Adams in a highly realistic way); Andrew Jackson's forcefulness in protecting slavery is no longer appreciated. In short, many people today don't accept the post-Reconstruction rewrite of history that was gospel during the first half of the 20th century.

For some reason, it is very difficult for most people to apply critical thinking to the mythological version of History they learned as children ;-)

Columbus should be awarded a late Nobel Prize.

The dominant tribes in the Americas, such as the Aztecs were genocidal cannibals.

Columbus was a brave explorer escaping from the ruthless Islam domination of the Med Sea and their monopoly of trade from the East, the only way to go was West and he brought civilization to the Americas.

The mutual exchange of disease was not by intent or design, Columbus was intend upon trading spice-- not slavery drugs like opium, pot, cocaine or tobacco .

"History is usually written by the victors."

Anon: Would you please explain why you deprecate the use of the word denigrate? What reference handbook should be consulted?

"The dominant tribes in the Americas, such as the Aztecs were genocidal cannibals."

That would be news to the Iroquois Federation (look that up) and most other Native Americans. While the Aztecs practiced limited ritual cannibalism as part of their religion, so did (and do) Christians - behind a veil of symbolism. Besides, I think you're confusing Columbus with Cortez. Columbus never heard of the Aztecs.

"Columbus was a brave explorer escaping from the ruthless Islam domination of the Med Sea and their monopoly of trade from the East, the only way to go was West and he brought civilization to the Americas."

Nonsense. The Portugese were routinely sailing to India by going around Africa when Columbus made his bid to Spain.

"Columbus was intend upon trading spice-- not slavery drugs like opium, pot, cocaine or tobacco."

C'mon, now. Columbus didn't go all that way for a nip of nutmeg. The oriental trade was much more varied than that. And even if he missed out on the "slave drugs," his colonies did a lively trade in slaves.

Oops, correction. At the time of Columbus' first voyage, the Portugese knew that a route to India around Africa existed, but it was a few more years before they actually traveled it.

To 4theFacts: I love your "connecting the dots" thinking, and your use of language to do it. Resident, pithily said "history has to be studied as history, not as current affairs".

Re: the aside about "denigrate". I have actually found myself NOT using the word "denigrate" for fear that the ignorant might object because there is a vague similarity in a root that may remind some of a certain word that is only acceptably used at this point by black people. If anyone else uses it, it is hate speech.

After reading this comment, I realize now that I was wrong to censor myself. We MUST use real words and phrases, vigorously and often, or we will lose them. We can not be niggardly in our use of words for fear of offending the ignorant. Just use the word "denigrate" in order to call a spade a spade, and be done with it.

Of Course, glad to see that your grief regarding the Myth of Columbus has moved from Denial to Anger. Maybe you can skip Depression and move right on to Acceptance.