Once again, Perspective, there were mechanisms to remove from office the former president of Honduras if he violated the constitution. A military coup is not one on them

I imagine the officers and judiciary of Honduras took oaths of allegiance to their constitution.

Here's a pretty good summary of the situation that explains why both sides are wrong:

Web Link

The military is not in charge of the country, therefore it was not a military coup.

The elected Congress put in place the second in command from the same party. The elected CIVILIAN body is still running the country. The Supreme Court is still up and running. This is not a coup.

The Supreme Court said "NO" to the demand of the former Pres. The Congress said "NO" to the demand of the former Pres. The former Pres said "too bad" and tried to run an unconstitutional referendum against the wishes of the Honduran govt and Supreme Court. The Supreme Court and Congress asked the military to bring him out of the country where he can not foment trouble ....the only other legal option was..what? Throw him in jail? Perhaps. I don't know the Honduran law. Do you, Svatoid?

But I DO know that by gently removing him to outside the country where he can not coordinate, from the inside, an uprising in league with his outside, unelected, friends seems like a pretty smart move to me.

If he really prefers the jail option, he can still take it. He has been promised jail if he returns.

I take it, Svatoid, you know Honduran law and the mechanisms that the Supreme Court and the Congress of Honduras used that were against their laws? Please cite them. I have yet to find a single person anywhere who can tell me what part of their laws or their Constitution they broke in protecting their Constitution.

By OUR standards, yes..seems he should have been put under arrest and thrown into a jail inside the country. On the other hand, we aren't surrounded by other countries' leaders who are trying to gain power through our Pres trying to gain an illegal extra term in office, either. We don't have other countries fomenting (much) trouble in our country, trying to get our Pres to illegally stay longer for their purposes, ready and willing to stir up riots once the Pres is jailed.

I note that there has been no bloodshed in Honduras, that the cities and villages are open for business..though the schools are closed.

As for our role in this..below is a link to a now out-of-the-closet blogger who has just published a book...Roger Simon. A Hollywood fellow and former leftist ( now returned to his liberal beliefs)

Web Link

BTW, thanks PA ONLINE for giving us have back a place to counter the constant biased propoganda most of us are steeped in day in and day out.

Apparently some people feel that a military coup is part of the law in south American countries. Why bother having mechanisms in place to remove people who violate the constitution if you fast track it using the military. And perspective claims he supports democracy!!!

"I imagine the officers and judiciary of Honduras took oaths of allegiance to their constitution. "

And are military coups part of a democratic constitution?

"Perhaps. I don't know the Honduran law."
But you seem to say that a military coup is okay under Honduran law. what ever happened to due process?

"the mechanisms that the Supreme Court and the Congress of Honduras used that were against their laws?"
Do you really believe that in a democracy, a Supreme Court and a Congress can call the military to remove the legally elected president?

I have a feeling that Walter and Perspective would be singing a different tune if the deposed president was one of their right-wing ideological buddies

I realize that there is a belief that if a lie is told enough, it becomes true..but I am not going to let this happen on this thread.

It was not and still is not a military coup.

I have posted what a coup is, what a military coup is, and how this is not either a coup or a military coup.

What is that saying, by Twain I believe, about a lie travelling around the world before the Truth has time to put on its pants? This is what has happened in this case.

And the USA is in a twist because Obama jumped the gun and took sides before understanding what this was all about..and unfortunately fueled the problem by emboldening the Chavez-Zelaya team.

Doncha wonder why CHAVEZ is the one flying Zelaya in and out of Honduras? Why CHAVEZ was the one who printed up the ballots since the Supreme Court in Honduras deemed them illegal? Why is AL-JAZEERA there taking pictures of "dead 10-13 year olds"...do you really think that since nobody else has reported this that it really happened?

Ask yourself, why is EVERY legitimate Honduran govt body against this guy returning except to jail?

They know what is going on, and they are trying to prevent a takeover of their country by tyrant(s).

I have posted valid links to why this is not a coup, nor a military coup....and here is yet another link telling the rest of the story, this time from the WSJ news source, not just an editorial( the valid media are slowly catching up to the underground ones).
Web Link

This one is an editorial by the WSJ South America Correspondent, who has been absolutely correct and prophetic for the 8 years I have been reading her work.
Web Link

Read the SJ Mercury today about this..note the multiple infractions of the Honduran law and Constitution by Zelaya reported in the Merc, and the fact that Al-Jazeera is there, reporting on a supposed death of a youth that nobody else saw...why is this happening?

Why is this Zelaya calling on the Blood of Christ to back him up? Why does he feel a need to whip people up into a type of religious fever? Yet the Cardinal INSIDE Honduras is against him returning also, asking him to remember his vows he took when he took office. We have every, single Honduran group against this guy..yet what is happening? Who is being covered?

Think about what is happening, people, this is how liberty is lost.

There isn't a "both sides are wrong so we shrug our shoulders and give up" to this. This is a choose what you support issue. Do you support a legitimate, elected govt with a constitution doing what it must to defend itself against a takeover Chavez-style, as happened to the once valid democracy in Venezuela, or do you support an undemocratic, unconstitutional takeover of a country?

Last thing I write on this. I fear it is going to get ugly unless BHO can figure out a way to put a halt to this. But, I fear he won't be able to do so...it is too late, he helped fan the flames too high.

"I realize that there is a belief that if a lie is told enough, it becomes true..but I am not going to let this happen on this thread."

But that is exactly what you are doing. You keep on saying this was not a coup. But it was:

Web Link
"A coup d'état (pronounced /ˌkuːdeɪˈtɑː/ us dict: kōō′·dā·tâ′), or coup for short, is the sudden, unconstitutional deposition of a legitimate government, by a small group of the State Establishment — usually the military "

Now you may want to get caught up in your usual semantics, but this was a coup, performed by the military.

Maybe it is okay in your book to have the democratically elected leader of a country, with whom you disagree with because of his politics, arrested and hustled out of the country by the military. And you are free to call it a coup or not. But the facts speak for themselves..

"note the multiple infractions of the Honduran law and Constitution by Zelaya reported in the Merc"
And there was no way to deal with these infractions using the law? the military had to be called in to remove the president immediately?


"Yet the Cardinal INSIDE Honduras is against him returning also,"
Yes, what a representative of the Vatican has to say carries much weight with me.

"Do you support a legitimate, elected govt with a constitution doing what it must to defend itself against a takeover Chavez-style, as happened to the once valid democracy in Venezuela, or do you support an undemocratic, unconstitutional takeover of a country?"

Well, if you claim to support a legitimate elected government, then you have to support Zelaya. As for "Chavez-style" takeover, since the courts ruled that the referendum was illegal, it is a non-issue. And if they felt that Zelaya violated the Constitution, there were democratic measures that could have been used to deal with the matter. Calling in the military to stage a coup is a no go. Zelaya had not "taken over" the country., He was the democratically elected leader, in office until January 2010

"do you support an undemocratic, unconstitutional takeover of a country?""
That is what you are supporting by backing the military coup in Honduras.

I note that there is extreme quiet on this topic in our papers, news channels, blogs.

What is happening? Has everyone figured out that, ..oops..they jumped to the wrong conclusion that it was a "military coup", now know that it was a protection of democracy and their Constitution by their Congress and Supreme Court, and have slunk quietly away?

I won't post here the links..do a search to find out the latest. I think the air is being let out of Chavez, Ortega and Castro, and the ousted wanna-be is starting to bluster.

So, this is it? We, in Palo Alto, and as a nation, support our President and Secretary of State when they side with Zelaya, (backed by Chavez and Castro), and who are now trying to use our might to force the Hondurans to accept back someone who did all he could to break their Constitution? Is it really true, Palo Altans don't care about whether or not we, the USA, are on the side of Honduran laws and Constitution, or on the side of a (now ex) president who was trying to break the Constitution of Honduras? I hear nothing but silence everywhere, unless it is the Chron calling the lawful govt "rebels".

Please give me hope that we haven't all lost our way.

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Honduras had a problem, namely that its president wanted to override the consitution with a referendum that was not approved by the other branches of the government. He had Chavez print up the ballot, and decided to go ahead, anyway. The ligimate authority would seem to be the consitution, not the current president.

The president, rufusing to obey the law, was arrested and deported. Given Latin American history, he is very lucky that he was not shot dead on the spot, perhaps because it was his own party that arrested him. The army was reacting to the will of the consitutional brances of government. This not a classical coup. The army did not take over power.

To think about this in U.S. terms, suppose Obama, after having served his consitutional limit of two terms, decides to throw a plebiscite, with ballots imported from Cuba, in order to violate the consitutional limit on terms in office. If the U.S. Congress said, "No way, Obama", yet he went ahead, it would be incumbent upon the Congress or the Supreme Court to order the FBI into action to arrest him.

Chavez in now agitating (the single thing that he does very well), and he will probably infiltrate arms into Honduras, in order to create a civil war. Hillary and Obama are playing a bigger game, aimed at pleasing their leftist friends in Latin America.

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

"It is clear that he has no respect for the Honduran constituion. "
Looks like the Senate and Supreme Court in Honduras have no respect for the Honduran constitution either--there were avenues open to them to remove a democratically elected president--they chose a military coup.
The action was condemned by not only the US but the OAS as well.
Claiming that Chavez is inciting a civil war sounds great to people like you--however you do not have any facts to back up your claims. It is always convenient for the right-wing to have a boogie man to blame (in this case Chavez) for all that is wrong.

"Claiming that Chavez is inciting a civil war sounds great to people like you"

Actually, it sounds bad to me, but that is what he will probably do (all with total denial). He (Chavez) has already suggested that he will invade, if his socialist stooge is not reinstated.

There a big rally, today, in the capital that opposed the return of of the former president/goon. This thing is cooking up, and will probably become a tipping point for the future of democracies in Latin America. [Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

I pray that the war I fear coming isn't actually on the way. I pray that we correct our stance and do what we must to prevent it. Otherwise, their blood is at least partially on our hands, and the enslavement to tyranny on our conscience.

There is no way those who believe in the Constitution, who were kind enough to NOT shoot or imprison Zelaya, are going to win a war if it comes, given that Zelaya's supporters will have arms and military support from at least Chavez and his much bigger army, if not also Ortega and Castro.

Poor things. My guess on the outcome, aside from the horrible consequences to the losers, is that any other South American democracy that wants to enforce its Constitution will not be so kind to a President who is trying to override its Constitution, its Congress, and its Supreme Court..and I will not blame them.

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Perspective--are you heaping praise on the military because they did not shoot Zelaya? Is that how things work in your kind of democracy?
I see you have introduced two other of your favorite boogie men, Ortega and Castro, into the discussion. Why don't you use the term "communist" next.

I am heaping praise on a constitutionally elected congress and a legally appointed Supreme Court for handling Zelaya, a man who was going against the Supreme Court, the Congress and the Constitution, with more kindness than, in retrospect, I am thinking he deserved, and I am thinking that other democracies in South America are looking at the results of their kindness and thinking about how they might do things differently. I suspect that no other person who tries to pull this stuff will be gently placed into another country in a palatial hotel and told to chill out, and re-think his actions.

Oh, and ok, I will use the term Communist. Chavez, Castro, Orega and Zelaya are Communists, which is a centrally planned economy according to an underlying Marxist ideology. I see nothing at all to dissuade me from using that name in reference to these guys. I see nothing wrong with calling something by its name, just like I freely call myself a Capitalist, someone who believes that the market is best left to millions of individuals to "vote on" with their pocketbooks, the opposite of "centrally planned". So..the problem is?

"I am heaping praise on a constitutionally elected congress and a legally appointed Supreme Court for handling Zelaya, a man who was going against the Supreme Court, the Congress and the Constitution, with more kindness than, in retrospect, I am thinking he deserved"

What about the fact that Zelaya was a democratically elected head of state? Where there no avenues for dealing with Zelaya using the democratic processes or was a military coup the only answer?

How did they handle him with more kindness than he deserved? you sound like you are sorry they did not shoot him? What about due process? What about a trial so that he can answer the charges as is done in democratic nations?
Or is a military coup coupled with an execution the way things should be done when they deal with people that you disagree with politically?

I will await the results of our failed American mediated "diplomacy" today, as Zelaya lands outside the border of Honduras, and tries to enter into it, having called all his supporters to come to him and fight the military who will be lined up along the border to arrest him as he enters the country.

Nice guy, calling his supporters, trying to stir up violence. This is what the Honduran govt was trying to do, prevent the violence they knew this guy would try to stir up.

Svatoid, will you be happier with the guy in jail? Will you be happier with him in jail, after agitating his supporters to violence with the same language dictator wanna-bes have used for 100 years to seduce the ignorant into destroying their lives? Every brutal tyrant who has come to power in the last 100 years came to power with the same siren song of "helping the poor" and "without me there will be disasters" and creating envy and rage-filled chasms between classes and races, as Zelaya is doing.

The Honduran Congress, President and Supreme Court have asked their military to be strong in the face of an attempted unconstitutional take-over. Thus far they have been well-trained and disciplined enough to not react with violence to the attempted take-over. I just hope that in the heat of the moment being engineered today by Zelaya with Chavez's support there is not violence ...( and why is Chavez involving himself in this from months before Zelaya was arrested and brought out of the country? Think about it.)...

I am going to spend my day praying that this does not end in violence.

Looks like I was a day behind. Good news. I have to give more credit to Zelaya than I was giving him. He chose to enter in a "neutral" territory, stepped over the line into Honduras just enough to claim he had entered, but then stopped and called the military commander, who warned Zelaya that he would be arrested if he stepped in further. Zelaya's supporters were 10 Kilometers away, out of the neutral zone that Zelaya had stepped into, so they weren't pulled into the drama, much to Zelaya's credit who claims to have chosen this route to avoid bringing bloodshed.

I am thankful that he has had time to calm down and think this through, and chosen a way where he got to "save face" by stepping however briefly into Honduran territory, and the Honduran Congress, Supreme Court and President were able to be calm and consistent in their approach to Zelaya.

Per "China View", chinaview.cn,

"Marta Lorena Alvarado, the interim government's vice foreign minister, said in a comminuque that Zelaya's return promoted "subversion and violence" even "a bloodbath" in Honduras, saying the arrest order against him was still valid.

Alvarado told TV Channel CNN in a telephone interview that Zelaya would be detained and taken to court, saying the interim government had asked the International Committee of the Red Cross to witness the whole process in a bid to show her governments respect for Zelayas human rights.

Honduran interim Foreign Minister Carlos Lopez, said earlier that as a Honduran citizen, Zelaya would be allowed to return home where he would face 18 criminal charges.

"Zelaya has two options, to be outside (the country) or to enter and be judged," Lopez told a press conference at the Foreign Ministry building in Tegucigalpa.

Lopez on Friday criticized Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega for interfering in Honduras' internal affairs by supporting Zelaya.

He also called on the international community to join the talks as observers to solve the crisis in Honduras."

In looking at how this is turning out, I continue to support the approach they took.

Honduras had 3 choices: Imprison, exile or execute the President who was defying their Constitution. Given they are a civilized democracy which doesn't assassinate, that wasn't an option. Given that I am sure they knew the propoganda-filled word "coup" would be used if they arrested and imprisoned him, while also allowing him to be a central "martyred" figure drumming up unrest and support in his country, working in tandem with outside forces, they decided to simply gently place him outside the country to allow the word "coup" to fly around the world just as fast, but to give time for the truth of the situation to emerge and to not allow him to drum up unrest inside the country.

It was also brilliant, absolutely brilliant, in that now that everyone is crying "follow the law, follow the law", they are saying "fine, come on in, and we will arrest you..your choice". Zelaya is quoted as saying ( I can't remember where I read it today..) something like "I am not scared, but neither am I foolish"..

Wise heads all around. Impressive ( from my standpoint).

Another brilliant move on the part of the USA. Adding insult to injury to Constitutional Governments every where. Trying to force the reinstatement of the Honduran ex-President, Zelaya...completely ignoring the unanimous proclamation by every member of the Honduran Govt and Supreme Court that if Zelaya comes back, he comes back into a jail, not office.

Disgusting.

Link to Brietbart. Gaining ever more stature in my eyes as it continues to be at the forefront of accurate reporting in the English speaking world on this issue.


Web Link

Web Link

Great article in WSJ by Ms. Anastasia, who is always right on about South of our border issues.

Worth a read. Are you proud of our country in this regard, yet? Have you any doubt what our President's foundational political beliefs are? Are you at all nervous yet?

Where did the rest of the post go?

Honduras all alone, sounds like Spanish for Hungary.

Well sports fans it gets worse by the day.

Hondurans today are in the grip of a ploy that is underway by OAS and the US Department of Soros-State. Honduras has been passed off to Arias as a gimmick. This is a trap because Arias is a bought and paid for Soros man. The Hondurans have been set-up to become part of (Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas) ALBA. Web Link without a vote of the people.

Hillary and Insulza (Organización de Estados Americanos AKA OAS) Zelaya, and Chavez knew this- Hondurans did not. The trick today is to accept a mediated early election. We hope that Hondurans know that what Soros and Chavez and Correa really want is to insert, as was the case in Bolivia, a pre rigged constituent assembly, al la Ecuador, to hoodwink Hondurans in to accepting-passing-installing one of the world's worst so called constitutions- the ALBA constitution.

Take a look as to who is behind this ALBA here Web Link and here Web Link

Or how about some local Americans: Web Link

Now let's take a look at who's hands are being tied right now, the only people who could fix this mess. The CIA. Now think fortunate coincidence or plot? It was the US-DOJ who decided to start the examination, then the two faced Panetta was going to quit and then reconsidered. You think the people who have taken an oath to protect us will with Eric Holder looking in their pants?

That is what is at stake here and the fate of one tiny nation and freedom. The trap is set, the bait is on the table...and these paid socialists snakes of the night in all their snake oil dealing glory- are stubbornly determined to see their will be done.

Wow...disgusting. Literally, from the latin root of the word "disgust", ie to throw up.

Everytime I think I am as cynical and jaded as I can get, I learn something else

Maybe this is what aging is all about, learning the extent of evil thuggery clothed in "good intentions". America, we are party to the stripping of freedom from almost 8 million Hondurans. How do you feel?

Honduras, Spanish for Hungary, says it well in the post above.

Let me get this straight: Kerry, John ( you all know who he represents, right?) blocks Jim DeMint from taking a trip to a Constitutional Democratic Ally, with a great human rights record and freedom for each individual, Honduras, while continuing to denounce HOnduras for following its own laws and its own Consitution in dealing with a rogue President who was trying to break the Constitution....
Web Link

But the same party applauded and lauded the following Congressmen going to a human rights nightmare, gay-imprisoning, speech imprisonment, no vote, no work, communist dicatatorship, Cuba, a mere 5 months ago

Web Link

What is wrong with this picture? Your Elected Democrats at work. Keep up the good work Dems, America is figuring you out, finally. ( This is, I suppose, the silver lining in the total control the Dems have in all branches of government right now, can't blame anyone else)

Web Link

Above is an interview with DeMint, who, btw, praises H. Clinton for trying to keep the doors open to accepting the upcoming elections in Honduras instead of insisting on putting the Chavez-wanna be back into office.

So, DeMint actually made it to Honduras, in spite of Kerry... Sure was kept quiet in our news! I missed that news piece! Good thing I keep an eye on Fox!

Interesting part in the interview, also, about why Honduras shipped Zelaya out of the country ( which the rest of us already knew..but I am glad to see it is finally coming out here!)

Is it this Jim demint?

Web Link

""If we’re able to stop Obama on this it will be his Waterloo. It will break him," he said."

Sounds like he is a pompous, self-serving politician who would like nothing better than for Obama to fail. Does DeMint really care about America--oh, wait, he is from South Carolina, the state of Joe Wilson and Mark Sanford.

I just noticed that the majority of posts are from Perspective.

Svatoid, you are right. Anyone who is against any proposals by Obama is not to be trusted. Anyone from South Carolina is not to be trusted. Any of us who want to return America to a country which respects the basic individual rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of justice are pompous and self-serving, like our Founding Fathers, the original right-wing extremists...Any other broad -isms you subscribe to?

And certainly, you shouldn't use your own brain to analyze any facts about any situation...you should just trust your Party's leaders and believe whatever they tell you.

Well, because I hadn't heard any news from the Honduran front, I figured it didn't go the leftist way...I was right. If it isn't good news for the left, it isn't news fit to print.

Turns the election brought in a clear winner from the "center right" in Honduras, validating the entire process Honduras just went through.

Here is a link to the most leftist article I can find from the UK Guardian;..please note such silliness they are still promoting such as the notion it was " a military led coup" ( sic ) and their comment that "Zelaya was not on the ballot" ( sic...akin to a comment that Bill Clinton was not on the ballot for the 3rd term in 2000 which would be as illegal as it was for Zelaya to be on this ballot in Honduras).

http://www.guardian.co.uk

I offer the above link as a learning module for leftist propoganda techniques to any who wish to open their eyes.

Well update, once again you are engaging in falsehoods.
The election was reported in the New York times:

Web Link
Web Link


Try telling the truth

umm...read them again.

those are from before the election results were known.