I arrived at Baylands for an evening walk about the same time the CalFire helicopter did. I took some, all right a lot, of photos as it shuttled back and forth between the Mountain View Shoreline lake and the fire. More excitement during the walk than I'd anticipated.

I've posted some photos I took of the evening's activity at:

Web Link

There were lots of speculations on the cause and location of the fire among the spectators and I appreciate the prompt coverage and posting by Jay Thorwaldson and Keith Peters as to the location of the fire and what was burning. Evidently we'll be breathing the by-products of this fire for the next several days.

could we combine all these posts on the fire into 1?

<i>"A huge column of brownish smoke billowed into the sky and drifted southwest toward the southern end of Palo Alto but mostly toward Mountain View and Los Altos."</i>

Just like Palo Alto to have a fire where the smoke mostly blows out of town...

I was wondering what was going on with the helicopters so close - thanks to the city for the phone warning - this was prompt and informative...I didn't see or smell any smoke though I live close by

WE smelled the smoke for much of the night. It was really strong down here in South PA.

A big thank you to the PAFD for working so hard on this for us.

Any hay farmer will tell you that decomposing vegetable matter can spontaneously ignite if not properly handled. Spontaneous combustion is common in poorly managed haystacks and silage piles. Apparently that's what was going on at your dump.

If you have time to describe why & how this happens, I'd love to know more. I know they've has problems w/the gases igniting at Shoreline Amphitheater, so I'm assuming this is the same type of issue. I am curious because I thought they'd have a way to prevent this at the dump.

Thanks!

Phone call? What phone call warnings? I didn't receive any phone call or email that warned us of this fire! Our smoke alarms went off in our house b/c the smoke was so strong. My two toddler children were screaming with fright and covering their ears. I initially thought there was a fire inside my own house but couldn't locate it. I went outside and smelled the strong smoke and saw the gray sky. I called neighbors but no one answered. I tried to look on the internet and the local news stations for any information and couldn't get any. I finally called the fire department but there was no answer. I then called the police department and they said that there was a fire in the "refuse" area on the other side of the 101 and then hung up on me. Why didn't I get the warning calls that this supposed wonderful city supplied residents yesterday? Is it because I live in South PA? I would've appreciated a warning or information of some kind since my son has sensitive lungs!

Dark from Fairmeadow: Every resident of Palo Alto who has signed up for CANS received a telephone call and an e-mail message about the fire from the City. Your neighborhood leader should have e-mailed your neighborhood with information on how to sign up for CANS messages.

Great Job PAFD! Be Safe.

to: in the dark - maybe you weren't called because do you have an unlisted home phone #?

I have an unlisted phone number and wasn't included on the automatic calling list even though my next-door neighbors were included and claimed they had never "signed up" (I checked with them). Once I realized this, I just went to the city of PA website and did then sign up both my home phone and cell phone. I think it's worth doing.

There goes Palo Alto's carbon footprint target. A pity they didn't run the trash through a biomass converter and generate electricity.

Fires from spontaneous combustion are fairly common in compost and high piles of vegetable matter ( including coal piles).

It is common at coal fired power plants to have a bull dozer working almost full time to level out coal and put out fires caused by the coal being piled too deep.

Web Link

Dont know anything about "neighborhood leaders", but here is the sign up for the CANS system on the PA web site.

Thank you Jenny and Anonymous for the information. I don't have an unlisted number and I am on the email tree in my neighborhood, but I still did not receive any calls or emails. Per both of your suggestions I signed up with CANS and here is the direct link for anyone else who needs to:
Web Link

Thanks again for the information.

Since somebody asked: Basically, the decaying vegetable matter slowly combines with oxygen and generates heat, which builds up inside the pile because the pile material forms an insulating blanket. Microbes decomposing the vegetation also generate metabolic heat, plus flammable gases including methane and hydrogen that are also trapped by the overburden. A fire breaks out if the temperature reaches the ignition temperature of this mixture while some oxygen remains. The cure is to stir the pile frequently to release the heat and flammable gases. Here's more: Web Link

Around the house: This mechanism also ignites oily rags or paper towels that have been crumpled and piled up or maybe just tossed into a waste basket. The cure is to store them in the shade outdoors in a tightly sealed metal container until trash pickup day, then seal them in an airtight bag before putting them in the trash.

Garbage trucks occasionally catch fire on their rounds because either something like this spontaneously combusted or chemicals in their load reacted and generated heat.

Here's a video that demonstrates how gas from waste can ignite.

Web Link

Many people with unlisted numbers, who have changed their numbers or are fairly new to the area will not automatically be included in the CANS warning. At a time like this, it is a good idea for anyone who didn't get called yesterday to check out to see if you are on the CANS system. In our home, we had a call to our home phone, an email and two cell phones received the calls because that is what we signed up for. You can sign up for as much or as little as you want. Even if you did get a call to your home phone, you can get more calls to other technology so check it out and see what you feel is right for you.

In the Dark:
The telephone warning system didn't begin until around 8:00PM. We received our automated call at 8:10PM. Unfortunately, being on the "Call List" didn't help much, because the call came so late. The system should have been activated much earlier, in order to alert people to the health hazards of the smoke. It is beneficial to be on the call and email lists, but I would urge the powers-that-be to call much more quickly, not three hours after the fire was reported. It was obvious what we should do in this case: close the windows and stay inside. But there could be other emergencies where we would not be aware of what actions to take to help ourselves and our neighbors.
Thanks to the firefighters and other personnel who are handling this situation with great skill.

There can be not doubt now that this huge industrial composting operation does not belong in our Baylands. Compost piles get so hot that this is the result. Think of the CO2 that is being generated here for days and will possibly occur again in the future. the composting operation itself generates great clouds of compost dust that can be seen for miles. This dust is very polluting and will be a continual source of air pollution even without burning. It is time to eliminate this commercial operation and give Palo Altans the park we have been waiting for for 40 years.

By Law The refuse Site is required by law To have equipment on site at all time to control this type of Emergency Funny thing is The Refuses site Water truck has been broke down for several days again and is in the MSC Yard It has be due for replacement for two years now. You can thank the cities Fleet Manager for this.

Hey, Freeman -- great photos. Thanks!

I spotted the fire around 5:30 as I was biking through the baylands. The smoke was billowing from the hill, which I guessed was the landfill, and blowing towards South Palo Alto. Crossing the Adobe Creek/Lefkowitz underpass was nasty. A lot of smoke and particulate matter. Once I crossed Louis @ East Meadow, the air cleared considerably. All the smoke was definitely headed towards Mountain View.

I think it's time that we should consider moving this massive GHG producing operation away from our city.

CO2 + 4 H2 ¨ CH4 + 2H2O

CH3COOH ¨ CH4 + CO2

I have heard that methane has a global warming potential 25 times greater than C02 when it is averaged over 100 years.

Outstanding photographs by Mr. Bradford!!

Just to get another historical fact straight. The shipping line (Cunard) that owned the Titanic did one of the worlds best PR jobs when they said the ship hit an iceberg. The Titanic was a steamship that ran on coal. The huge piles of coal kept in the hold of the ship spontaneously ignited and blew a huge hole in the side of the ship. End of Titanic. The ship was actually cruising too far south to hit icebergs.

Long Time Resident: Composting does not produce methane. It does produce CO2. But it would produce the same amount if the green waste was composted somewhere out of the Baylands. That would create the additional GHG caused by shipping the green waste out and shipping compost back for the people that need it. So do we want to cause more regional traffic, GHG, and fuel usage when we don't have to? Parks are nice, but sustainability is better.

Enid: I would call this an agricultural operation rather than an industrial operation. A fire like this could occur at a remote location too. So again, the CO2 emmission would be the same. Perhaps even greater because our green waste would be mixed with even bigger piles from other regions. That could result in larger, longer, and harder to control fires.

The alternative to having Palo Alto's compost processed at the dump in the Baylands is to transport it all to the SMART Center in Sunnyvale. Why should Palo Alto dump their compost problems onto Sunnyvale. Keep the compost here and monitor it properly.

Composter correctly notes that the industrial-scale composting being done in Byxbee Park is an agricultural operation. Agricultural operations should be done in agricultural areas, a state which Palo Alto and other peninsula towns eagerly developed themselves out of years ago.

Our composting would be much better carried out in, say, the central valley, in concert with other cities in the region. To minimize transportation-generated GHG the compostables ought to be transported by rail. In fact, we should be preparing for long-distance rail transport of all our solid wastes (including recyclables) as local landfills fill up and population growth makes parkland ever more necessary and land too valuable for low-return industrial uses like waste processing.

I suspect the comments from "an employee" are those of either an employee who was recently disciplined or one who was terminated from fleet management - for not doing their jobs properly in maintaing City eqiuipment! The City does have required equipment and backups from other functions available.

The fire did not start from "spontaneous combustion"; according to the same media sources we are all commenting on it started from materials dropped off from a PASCO truck delivering green waste from residents! The compost piles are turned on a regular basis - spend some time observing the operation and that is obvious.

I have seen this sort of thing happen several times in huge piles of wood chips at pulp mills in the Pacific Northwest, particularly after it rains. The dozer operators at the truck dumps get behind and then a fire will break out in the pile. Massive pressure on the material on the underneath side of the pile from all the tons of wood chips above. Have also seen this happen in Oregon at operations that process bark and sawdust for eventual retail sales. A fire will start lower down in the pile, then it will burn upward. It looks like a chimney at the top where a column of smoke starts to pour out. Then everyone scrambles! Sometimes adding water to the piles contributes to the fires. You just have to turn the material over more often to avoid them.

Waiting by the phone says: The telephone warning system did not begin until around 8:00 PM. That is when you got your call. However, many residents got their calls earlier. The CANS system can only call a certain number of people at one time. My neighbor got a call almost an hour ahead of me, I figured that maybe it was because my last name begins with a "W"!!

Waiting by the phone: CANS can process approximately 2,000 calls per hour. PA probably has more than 2,000 households signed up for the program. Just be thankful we have this program because many Cities in the Bay Area do not have it.

To respond to CHnCider,
I suspect the comments from "an employee" are those of either an employee who was recently disciplined or one who was terminated from fleet management - for not doing their jobs properly in maintaing City eqiuipment! The City does have required equipment and backups from other functions available.

The fact remains you where not prepared for this incident, there was no water truck on site, and as far as your comments as far as my employment status I am happily Employed with no problems, but as a resident I am concerned. Lets face it this situation could have been avoided,but it was not. Say what you want, but you put the people at risk. So play your game blaming an employee, but remember it is your job to supply the essiental tools and equipment Required to handle this type of problem and you did not

To respond to "an employee" -

You need to stop telling half truths and distorting the facts in order to serve your own purposes.
Yes, that particular truck (# 4229)was in the shop for repairs (replacing a starter motor). What you fail to state out of either ignorance or malicousness is that the water truck from the tree section (#3115)was temporarily assigned to the landfill during that time.
Further,contrary to your original contention that the replacement has been ignored, the replacement truck is on the City Council agenda for purchase contract award on August 4th. You could look it up......

So much for your "facts"! Ironic that you stae you are "happily employed" - it certainly doesn't sound like it!

Due to a recent increase in the numbers of fires occurring in piles at compost sites and other sites handling green material, the State produced a memo for Law Enforcement Agencies.

The memo states that an adequate water supply for fire suppression must be provided.
"Section 17867. General Operating Standards.
(a) All compostable materials handling operations and facilities shall meet the following requirements:

(8) The operator shall provide fire prevention, protection and control measures, including, but not limited to, temperature monitoring of windrows and piles, adequate water supply for fire suppression, and the isolation of potential ignition sources from combustible materials. Firelanes shall be provided to allow fire control equipment access to all operation areas."

And the size over 12 feet high is really dangerous.

"Pile size dictates heat retention. When some very old, relatively hard-packed material in large piles had pile heights reduced to 6 feet or less, internal temperatures were directly lowered to less than 20 degrees above ambient. A pile over 12 feet high with sub-surface temperatures above 160 degrees Fahrenheit would in most cases be cause for extreme alarm."

For more information, read the memo from The California Integrated Waste Management Board.

Web Link

Of course, if the city blames this on briquettes brought in by a PASCO truck, then they are off the hook.

To "Long Time Resident" -

What makes you think those CIWMB regs are not being complied with? It sounds like you are trying to create an appearance of malfeasance through the mere power of suggestion.

To respond to CHnCider,

I took an Oath at my date of hire, to Protect and Serve the People of our wonderful City and I still abide by that Oath. You have blamed me, the Employees,Pasco and the residents for what I feel is incompetance. Your story has changed and continues to change. My concern for my family,friends,employees, and residents has now turned to outrage. [Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.] Who will you blame next the heroes that serve for PAFD. You have the nerve to accuse me and others of half truths, is it true that the water truck is unuseable and was the Tree Water truck ever actually dispatched to the site? And now since you are questioning what other residents are asking, is the city emergency equipment over 20 years old? I thought that the city budgets for equipment, oh maybe you didn't get the memo.

Employee in The Greenhouse neighborhood,

Thank you. Residents only want to know the truth. Once we know the truth, then we will be able to make the correct decisions for our future.

Posted by CHnCider, a resident of the Downtown North neighborhood, 10 hours ago
Further,contrary to your original contention that the replacement has been ignored, the replacement truck is on the City Council agenda for purchase contract award on August 4th. You could look it up......

Since I was unable to find such a Document any where in the cities agenga on paloalto.org maybe you could show us.

To "employee"

It's obvious you've got issues far beyond the scope of this discussion. I hope you find some peace in dealing with them. You sound very much like the former PA firefighter who used to visit these forums. If you choose to want to not believe me, that's fine, but it doesn't change the facts or the truth of the matter. I no longer intend to dialog with you as it does no good and only causes you to escalate.

Peace/Out

I just want to make sure that everything is being done to prevent this incedent from happeneing or if something should happen there is a plan in place to protect all.

I want to say I am very dissapointed in the person who is responding by the name CHnCider. It is obvious that you are someone of high management in the city due to the facts that you displayed regarding the vehicles involved(#4229 having a starter replaced/replacment on council agenda). Why would refer to the employee as being ignorant. It sounds like the employee is only trying to shed some light on the situation. You wrote that you no longer will dialog with the employee regarding this but you will need to dialog longer with the residents of Palo Alto regarding OUR city. Do not try to scare employee's out of speaking on these forums. Maybe that is what we need is more employee's who work in the replacment vehicle department to speak out about what is going on in our city.

It sounds like CHnCider is trying to cover his tracks once again.

Additionally, water truck 3115 never showed up because the correct number of the water truck is 3515. This truck was set up for watering trees and foliage at the side of the road, not for fighting fires or watering landfills/compost piles.

No, CHnCider is not the Fleet Manager, I am. I think it would probably be better to get the facts from the source (me) rather than from anonymous posters who obviously have an axe to grind. My phone and email address are public record. I will not use this forum for the discussion of official City business.

Keith LaHaie
Fleet Manager
City of Palo Alto

So when can we expect the new Fire Trucks and Water trucks to show up MR.CHnCider/Fleet Manager or is that considered Official City Buissiness as well?

The composting area sounds dangerous for employees.
What happens if one of their vehicles is on top of a smoldering area.

I want to know how often our city and the residents actually need to take compost away from the facility for use in their gardens.

Someone give me numbers.

If not many, then I think it is wise to move the operation out of here.

Citizen, a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood

I believe it has been pretty popular, I dont not know the totatls or how much has been issued to citizens and with all materials if it is hadled properly and responsibly and with the proper equipment it is fine. my whole family lives near the area affected and my concern is for my children and my parents and I feel this fire could have been avoided from what I have seen.

I have never had occasion to use compost from this facility, but if it is mixed with toxic substances with lighter fluid and oily rags then I surely don't want it in my little garden.

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Did anybody get hurt Fighting the fire?

1 equipment operator did when a hand rail broke loose on 1 of the tractors It was probably a junker to.

The Landfill used to have there own Mechanic

The fleet manager works for the Director of Public Works.
The Director should be held accountable.
This operation is unsafe to both employees and citizens!
Our safety is more important than money spent on things like "Destination Palo Alto".

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Here is a copy of my posting on the other thread about the fire --

Agenda Item #7 on the City Council's August 4, 2008, agenda's Consent Calendar is for approval of a purchase order for several trucks, including a 3,600 gallon water truck.

The city staff report is at Web Link

The attachment to the staff report, including the previously approved Capital Improvement Project (CIP) is at Web Link

According to the staff report, the 3,600 gallon water truck priced at $205,650 in the recommended bid was already included in the CIP, but the same water truck is not included in the significant purchases itemized in the CIP with values ranging from $165,000 to $780,000.

Those of you who are not City employees and are interested in getting more detail may want to accept the Fleet Manager’s offer to discuss any concerns you may have about the water truck replacement.

I can understand why an anonymous employee on this thread might not want to disclose his or her name.

Posted by Herb Borock, a resident of the Professorville neighborhood, on Aug 1, 2008 at 1:59 pm

To Herb Borock,

The issues with the landfills water truck was brought to Mr. LaHaie,s attention in 2006, along with other vehicles that are ether past replacement or considered unsafe, however nothing was or has been done. It is great that Mr. LaHaie has made the offer to discuss the present issues at hand, however it is interesting that Mr.LaHaie chose not to listen to the Crews that operate these vehicles, and still chooses to take this same approach. I wish you the best of luck in contacting any Manager in the Fleet Department, but the odds are slim.

One of many.

TO Herb Borock (Keith Lahaie or Glenn Roberts)

You are posting information stating that there are new trucks on order.

No one is questioning that you may have new trucks on order.

The concern is this SHOULD have been done years ago. So listen to your departments and employee's when it comes to equipment needing replacment. As you can see it affects the resident's.

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Maybe a reporter from this newspaper would like to further investigate the water truck situation?

To whom it may concern,
Many a problem has been brought to the present Fleet Managers attention, this includes Vehicle issues, Training for workers, and Worker Safety. Anybody who questioned,complained, or dissagreed, was made to look like the problem, and eventualy was forced to quit there position or to transfer to a different position in the City. This is true ask for the Employee turnover rates for the MSC Garage workers were not listened to by The Fleet Manager or Human Resorces, or Glenn Roberts. Check this out for yourselves.