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Review; The Paramedic transport Engine program Audit it?

Original post made by fireman, another community, on Jun 22, 2008

Why can the City Manager and city council not want to look at or talk to the public about the paramedic transport engine program.

The City and employee's worked on it for years, I was one of them.
The Fire Chief talked about it, wrote orders for how it was to be used. Posted a starting date.
Bought 2 Fire Engines at a huge cost 2 to 3 times as much as a regular Fire engine. increased the staffing for this program.
Spent Millions on this program.

Now the catch.. There is no Paramedic Transport Engine Program.???

Yea you tell me how this happens????? Millions gone, mismanaged and guess what. You the citizens know nothing about it???

And many are trying to kee it from you. The Childrens Theatre is pennies compared to this!!!

Comments (23)

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Posted by From Another City Department
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jun 22, 2008 at 10:18 pm

The paramedic transport engines was an attempt to provide a better service to the Palo Alto citizens with a concept that had never been tried anywhere else. Whom ever was responsible for presenting this concept, it was pushed forward by the department's previous chief, Ruben Grijalva. It was part of the recommendations from the city's Q12 program where employees participated in a survey and had the chance to try new ideas that have never been tried before. The concept was to provide transport to the emergency room when there was too long of a delay for either the two primary PAF medic vans or AMR/county medics. This meant purchasing two modified fire engines which would have to preform it's primary function along with having enough functional room to transport a patient. Numerous modifications to the two special engines were attempted along with station modifications to accomodate the taller rigs. While this project was good on paper and design, all in all, the project failed. It was much more cost effective to bring in a BLS ambulance into the department's fleet than to continue with the paramedic transport engines. The BLS rig has freed up the two primary medic vans from non life and death ER transports meaning that the paramedic vans can be diverted to more urgent calls. This whole process did cost the city time and money. There is no denying that. Sometimes it does, but you still have to try. I doubt than anything illegal/criminal happened with this attempt and that all city policys and proceedures were followed. If you believe something criminal happened with this program, then go through channels, your union, or contact the city attorney. We all have things that happen in our jobs that are

Fireman, channel your energies into something positive or productive that would help you, the department and the community. Your career is stressful. Don't continue to add more stress level on the job, at home and on the web by bringing up these issues.

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 23, 2008 at 7:48 am

City Deparment. You have really messed both of those up.

?? YEARS OF WORK BY MANY and MILLIONS of WASTED DOLLARS you seem not to think too much about. Oh you are a City emplyee wasteing the money... So this is how it becomes OK??

This program Paramedic Transport Engines works in several other Cities. One Sandy City , Utah
Where I a long with several other members of the Fire Department went to LOOK at and RIDE in a PARAMEDIC TRANSPORT ENGINE for there PARAMEDIC transport engine program. Kind of like a model for the one the city paid for, but screwed up so bad it would not work here.

So your, never been tried before... IS SO FALSE and incorrect.

We came back as a groupe and recomended that we get the same ENGINES THEY HAVE. We also thought that Sand City was how are Department should function. If you go to a place like Sandy City, see there FD, you come back thinking if the citizens of palo alto only knew how bad there Fire department is run . HUGE$$$$$, low service for that huge cost.. Heads would roll..

No are leaders in the FIRE DEPARTMENT said no. you can not have those one. We will build are own, we will find a company who will do it. WOW what a screw up this turnned out to be.
So this project went on for years. The two engines that we did buy are the 2 with the 100+ Page report on how DANGEROUS there are and that they should have never been placed into service.
Now this was a change of working conditions for the Paramedics, Remember I was one for 12 years. now working condition suck in the city. We told the (Joke)the Union leader. No we are not supporting this program. Tell the City staff we need to talk about this before you go and make PROMISES to anyone. NO TALKING ever happened.

It is the slave theory in action. you will do it!!!! thing

So this program that was to be copied FAILED IN TWO WAYS.

1. These 2 Fire Engines were complete screw ups. Desighed by the PALO ALTO FIRE DEPARTMENT. CUSTOM.. only 2 like this ever built. The one the we looked at from the PEOPLE WHO BUILD THEM for a living. Was nicer than are regular engines.
Just could not believe that a groupe of people(STAFF) could make such a huge mess of getting 2 fire engines. There are companies that build them for a living. No not good enough for CPA. You talked about how tall there are. NO JOKE, when they showed up. They would not fit into the station. NO ONE EVER ASKED HOW TALL THEY WERE!!

After years of fighting the CITY and the Union Leaders we, THE FIREFIGHTERS, voted this program down. It could have been a good program. I supported it and most did, until it hit staff. STRAIGHT DOWN THE TUBES IT WENT.

The program was not new, other departments do it.

There are Engines built for this, I have seen, touched and ridden on some.

Are staff WASTED MILLIONS on these two engines. With years of work by many. They are not even safe plain fire engines. But the City paid for them worked on them for years, so guess what WE GOT STUCK with them.

BLS Basic life support ambulances have been around for 40 years? or more. A Paramedic Ambulance is an ALS unit. Advanced Life support.

Now we have not had enough Paramedic units for the Size of this City for sometime. 1 and 1/2 full time ambulances.
Now the Federal Gov, state gov, county gov make the rules for how a BLS/ALS unit will work. They set the standards. We always could reduce the level call to a BLS and keep the ALS units in service and the Patiant would get a lower bill $$$ for the lower service. not needing an ALS ambulance.
Now the PALO ALTO FIRE DEPARTMENT STAFF (chiefs) did not want us to down grade to a BLS ambulance? WHY

When this happens the City of PALO ALTO makes no money. They can not bill the Patient, because we did not transport the patient to the hospital.

So the staff comes out with a new general order. YOU WILL TRANSPORT EVERYONE PERIOD. Now the Bls service is from a private company. So this NEW rule cuts them out of palo alto. The service is there for the citizens at a lower cost to them. But we can not use it because the CITY LEADERS have made rules so as not to use them.

Now we as paramedics were very unhappy about this. Union WORTHLESS.
We fought, I can not have a person in the back of my paramedic ambulance not needing paramedic care, WHEN A REAL CALL COMES IN FOR A CHOKING BABY or a REAL ALS medical call.

Fire Department Leaders, $$$$ first. With this general order the PT has no CHOICE, the City of palo alto gets the money... FRAUD????

Now the Fire Staff really has no good idea how to run a fire department. They will not add paramedic service to the department. Now are ALS ambulances are doing BLS work.. OH do not worry they still are billing you for ALS services.. You get the lower service at the Palo Alto higher fee. I think that might be illegal. bait and switch. The public has no idea of what is going on. An Ambulance is an Ambulance??? no it is not.

Now to put a BLS Ambulance into service should 6 months tops.. The Fire Department took years. and guess what it is a part time position so the testing for the postions is less restrictive. So the City/ Fire department. Hires sons of Palo alto Chief for this new position. You know get the FAMILY IN.. Set the program up to do this.

Now other Fire Department have done both these programs, well. With no problems and not taking years and costing MILLIONS.

now this shows just how big a problem can get in Palo Alto. this is why A REAL GOVERNMENTAL department should investigate both of these.
Citizens were getting billed for the higher service and not getting it. Patients had there rights for the same service at a lower cost taken away by the city.

Now I would bet the city would say.. No we billed them at BLS service. I will say , I saw them getting billed at the higher rate. Checked several times to make sure. Then the City will say oops sorry, JUST ONE MORE MISTAKE... did you expect it to go well or be honest???
This should go up for investigation, your lack of accurate and truthfull posting above shows that something is not RIGHT here.

oh and do you not need to as the citizens when you want to spend millions of dollars on something NEW??
then fail and forget about it???? Nice... good little system supporter you are.

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 23, 2008 at 8:07 am

Hey lets give the 100 page report to the citizens at a city council meeting. Oh and with this program taking years and costing millions. there is much more than the 100 page report. All facts all. WRITTEN down all with the City FD leaders John hanccks on them.

One reason Gary Braum. hates for thing to be written down.. Wonder why???

I also have the written responces from the FIREFIGHTERS to the UNION PRESIDENT about the change of working conditions.
I know evidence is worthless in Palo Alto. a long with truth,facts, the law,Common sense.

If you look at just the Engine. 2 that are unsafe, in service.
2 engines to replace these.

You are talking 4 fire Engines and you are still behind the curve. the money wasted on the two transport Engines could have gotten to more. Now the 2 turned into 2 more that is 4, The city needs to buy two to replace the 2 that will have to go. 2 more equals 6.

This SCREW up cost the CITY 6 new Fire Engines, at a cost of at least 400,000.00 for each one. Not counting the hour this program was worked on for years. If you really added up the cost I think you can see that it is more than a couple million dollars...

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 23, 2008 at 8:19 am

I would have to say it is a good thing you did not use your name. The Concil and City leaders just do not say anything. It is really the only thing the can do. You said something. Now the public can prove you wrong and if you used your own name. You would be getting a little trip to visit the culture of fear library..

Also it shows you got sold a BS cover up story or you just really know less than you think you do about what goes on in this city.

want a copy of the report???? Get one there are copies in the fire deopartment. just not with the leaders. They burnned them.

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 23, 2008 at 8:38 am

The builder of the Transport Engines in Sandy City UTAH.. Was Emergency One. It was a very nice engine.

Sandy City might have a web site.

Emergency One would have one.

Sandy City Fd leaders made are leaders look like, The KEYSTONE cops do fire. With Millions to spend.

Common Sense is a wonderful thing and so wonderfulto see work?
And guess what it is free. if you find the right person.. You can see what happens when absent. It cost the city Millions.

This Fire department could not even copy anotherones program and not screw it up??? What does that tell you???

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 23, 2008 at 9:03 am

Google ALS Transport Engines.

Phoenix Az. Is where I think we got the idea. Seattle Wa and Phoenix have the best fire departments.

in the right place Great idea. we really just needed to add 12 hour of service to the 1/2 time unit and add one more medic unit.

however, with all the funds wasted and covered. Leaders who can not lead. you have to scramble. Pay for top shelve service. get the bottum of the barrel leaders. See what happens...

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 23, 2008 at 11:09 pm

From another city department, Did you google it. And learn something on your own. Or still getting played the fool? Swamp land thats for you. great buy. Or can I sell you a bridge? Got an Orange one in SF you can buy.

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 23, 2008 at 11:36 pm

Here Department and Tim.. In the late 1970's Phoenix had implemented paramdic engines. Now this is not a transport engine. It is 2 medics on every engine with Als equipment.

Now in 2003 in Palo Alto. We had No paramedic engine companies and only 3 people on each engine.

We told some people we have medics on engines and you do. They just do not have any equipment and are not acting as paramedics. Just getting paid to be paramedics.

And are Fd is one of the most expensive per reident. They will tell you it is pay and benifits. Do you believe that when they will throw 2+ million$ down the drain on a program that failed here in palo alto.

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 24, 2008 at 8:53 am

2- Als Ambulances- Full time
2- als Transport Engines
1- Bls Ambulance

So simple, It would have been a great CITY set up. LOTS of coverage.

THE CITY, The Fire Chiefs past AND PRESENT screwed it up so bad.

What you do have. Is not enough and has cost WAY TOO MUCH. Many more times what the BEST SYSTEM would have cost anywhere else that I know of in this WORLD... So screwed up, SO MANY MILLION of dollars WASTED and mismanaged. Not counting all the year services fall behind when the money is wasted. (455 million and counting I think it is,storm drains) This makes the 1500 dollar hammers that the government is know to buy. A DEAL, heck there giving them away.

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 24, 2008 at 10:07 am

Hey City department, What print crap, mislead, hide, Then when the tryth and facts show up.. HIT THE ROAD YOU ARE OUT OF HERE?

Here hold your hands out. THE PROGRAM DID NOT FAIL, The ALS Transport Engine used in the right way is just fine. You can go to Emergency One and buy one. A proven one. I have seen and went on a real call in Sandy City in one.


Boys, Tim and whoever .. Play with this.. One of the biggest problems was that the gurney would not make it into the cab? The rigs where to high. The way they do it is with a kneeler. That is an Air ride system that can lower the rig and then raise it back up. Like the Big red friegtliner Ambulance. Msc did not want to work on a system like that. I will leave it at that. Know about the Horse trailer...oops haz mat trailer... read the book...

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Posted by Palo Parent
a resident of Greenmeadow
on Jun 24, 2008 at 10:17 am

firedude: 10 replies to your original post, the last 9 by you, get some help please or, at the very least, stop boring us with your obvious whacked out and endless bla bla bla.

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 24, 2008 at 10:23 am

Examples and facts.....bla bla bla... Palo Parent if the million wasted are ok with you. Help pay it back?

Pay double taxs... That is what you are doing. You have to give then funding to blow and the funding to unblow something.

Bla,bla,bla If you do not care, do not read. SIMPLE..bla,bla,bla

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 24, 2008 at 10:29 am

I think it is called post and run. Bla,bla. oops palo parent. One of my post on sign on san diego has over 9000 hits someone is reading?

Stick to the Nanny story. How much you going to pay her or him?

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Posted by Palo Parent
a resident of Greenmeadow
on Jun 24, 2008 at 10:49 am

firedude: I think I hit a nerve. BTW: 9000 hits means nothing if you yourself generated 8999 of them.

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 24, 2008 at 11:35 am

Palo Parent. You really do like yourself. Where I have been, what I have had to do. What this City has done to me. Where I have to go. I think you might not like having a shoulder like mine. very painful.

You think you can hit a nerve? Keep going not even close.
Oh and I have been spending way too much time here and I do need to get back to the other site. I looked after I printed 9000. It had been a while since I was last there. It is closer to 10,000

The machine gun finger is for people who call themselves. Palo Parent. Because they do not have what it takes to use there Whole name. Not just first. How many names do you print under? Call your buddies to say" Print this,say that" you do don't you.
See I believe in here I am. Here is my box of examples and fact. Here is hard evidence. substance. I am ready.
Got yours. You ready?
Ok, NOW in the open with real people, open minded people. With common sense. Not people who are holding axes and torches. Mob rule. PP I have my fights and you have yours. Good luck.
Ever hear about a MILE and a pair of shoes? Did not think so.

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Posted by Palo Parent
a resident of Greenmeadow
on Jun 24, 2008 at 12:42 pm

Boo hoo hoo. Poor fireman is the only person to have experienced personal hardship. Perhaps you should read this quote by Mark Twain before you spout off again: "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and leave no doubt".

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 24, 2008 at 1:06 pm

You must have copied it down. If you read it you did not get it. You leave very little doudt.

Fight your own fight. Live your own life and buy yourself a name.
Stand up and earn yourself a name. Better yet.

Is so, Is not, Is so, You shut up.... my daddy can beat your daddy up. My sister can also beat your sister up. And your dad too! I am rubber and you are glue. Everything you say bounces off of me and sticks to you.
SO THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! one more to grow and inch (!)

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Posted by Palo Parent
a resident of Greenmeadow
on Jun 24, 2008 at 1:21 pm

fireman: Thanks for validating my previous post so well.

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 24, 2008 at 1:27 pm

is so,is not, is so, mom , make him stop, take his chalk away. He is writing things down. We do not do that here in Palo Alto. They told me so. And I do not like what he has to say.

What does crawl back under the porch and play your banjo mean.

He even wrote something about rights and standing up. Send the PD to his home to FIND THE CHAULK. Kick the door in. its a matter of pride.
see ya.

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 24, 2008 at 2:15 pm

Is this debate? Wow lots of fun. Not. Its like spending the day with the kids at My little perfect world. But there it is not a mouse.


They teach this debate stuff in school? Well if it works for you?

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 24, 2008 at 2:19 pm

Oh read the sign. Do not feed the animals.

Keep your kids and fingers away from the RAT and do not make eye contact.
He is foaming at the mouth and wearing a Its a matter of pride T-shirt. Oh its a teflon jumpsuit.
NICE. Came with the house.

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Posted by Adam
a resident of Midtown
on Jun 24, 2008 at 3:03 pm

This fireman is a nut case!

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Posted by fireman
a resident of another community
on Jun 24, 2008 at 3:39 pm

Thanks, Adam you can do better. old line.

Sorry, but further commenting on this topic has been closed.

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