A siren screamed as Engine 66 raced down El Camino Real on its way to a medical call. Once there, the three-man crew jumped out of the fire truck packed with hundreds of gallons of water and thousands of feet of hoses.

Lugging potentially life-saving equipment, they made their way to the third floor of the Clark Building of Palo Alto Medical Foundation, where a 51-year-old woman was lightheaded, sweating and feeling like her heart was racing — symptoms of supraventricular tachycardia.

Seconds count with most medical emergencies, so the firefighters quickly took the woman’s history, monitored her heart rate and breathing, set up an IV to deliver fluids and treated her with a fast-acting antiarrhythmic drug, which essentially stopped her heart for less than a minute and restarted it.

“I feel weird,” the woman said.

“That means it’s working,” a firefighter told her, adding that people who are treated with adenosine often say they feel weird after the drug takes effect.

After treating the woman, paramedic and firefighter Tyler Ecoffey sighed with relief as he peeled off his latex gloves.

“You don’t get to do that every day,” he said of administering the shot of adenosine.

It wasn’t the first medical call the three were deployed to that September day, and it wouldn’t be their last.

In the next 24 hours, the Palo Alto firefighters would respond to four calls involving chest pains or shortness of breath, one person who fell due to a medical issue and one residential carbon-monoxide incident.

While many people maintain an image of firefighters hanging around the fire station waiting for a blaze, today’s firefighters do far more than battle infernos. They are the first ones to respond to chemical and environmental emergencies, including suspected chemical odors or a natural gas leak. They are called to rescue a hiker who has fallen off a steep embankment and people trapped in cars after a crash. They also assist victims of heart attacks, strokes and other trauma.

Fire departments across the Bay Area, including the Palo Alto Fire Department, have evolved into multifaceted agencies in which firefighters are expected to have knowledge of and maintain adept skills in emergency medical services, technical rescue, hazardous materials, firefighting apparatus and equipment operation and maintenance, public education, disaster preparedness and, of course, fire fighting.

And because of this, there is no “typical day” for Palo Alto firefighters — each 24-hour shift brings new kinds of training exercises as well as new challenges.

Medical calls dominate

Palo Alto firefighters know well the ebb and flow of fire service: One minute, they’re watching TV or chowing down on lunch, the next they’re racing toward an emergency. And when the printer churns out a call sheet, chances are it’s some kind of medical problem.

More than 60 percent of the fire department’s calls for service are medical in nature, Fire Chief Eric Nickel said. The calls have been increasing due to a growing and aging population, he added.

“Palo Alto is a very vibrant community, but we also have a large portion of the community that is older,” he said. “Seventeen percent of the community is aged 65 and older, and that’s considered a high-risk group not only for fires but also medical emergencies.

“We fully expect to see in the next 10 to 15 years our emergency medical calls for service to increase, and that’s where we’re trying to position the department,” he said.

In response to the rising demand, city officials have made several changes in the department, which is the only one in Santa Clara County that provides ambulance service. Changes include an expanded medical-response operation and a greater emphasis on emergency planning.

In January, the department adjusted its staffing so that every fire apparatus and station (there are six year-round stations in the city; a seventh operates during the summer months) has at least one Advanced Life Support paramedic to handle serious emergency calls. That’s in addition to crews of firefighters who are trained as emergency medical technicians, capable of administering oxygen, using automated external defibrillators and performing CPR and other basic life support.

The City Council, in October, approved the purchase of two Type III ambulances to add to the city’s existing three full-time ambulances, which are strategically positioned in northern, central and southern portions of the city. The goal, Nickel said, is to reduce the city’s reliance on the county’s ambulance provider and continue to meet the department’s target of getting to medical emergencies within 12 minutes, 99 percent of the time.

“My ultimate goal is to have an ambulance at every fire station that’s cross-staffed by the engine company,” Nickel said.

Firefighters responded to 7,829 calls in fiscal year 2014, according to the City of Palo Alto 2014 Performance Report. Of those calls, 4,757 were medical/rescue-related — a 31 percent increase from fiscal year 2005, when the department responded to 3,633 medical/rescue situations.

And while medical calls have shot up, the frequency of residential structure fires has decreased dramatically. In 2005, the department responded to 58 structure fires compared to 15 in 2014.

Firefighters at Station 6, located on the Stanford University campus, will respond to on average six calls in a 24-hour period. And when Eric Heller, a paramedic and truck driver, arrives on the scene of a call, it’s not a fire hose he pulls out, it’s a pair of latex gloves and a medical bag.

A majority of the medical calls he gets dispatched to are alcohol-related — “Students who are intoxicated,” Heller said. Other frequent incidents include car-versus-bicycle crashes and sports injuries.

“Often times, we respond to the elderly population,” Heller added. “We have a lot of convalescent homes that seem like they’re only increasing over time, so our calls to those are very frequent.”

Heart attacks, strokes, falls and chronic respiratory issues are common refrains on the dispatch radio, so the practice of sending both a fire truck — equipped with oxygen, defibrillators and other first-aid essentials — and an ambulance is commonplace.

It takes Palo Alto firefighters eight minutes or less, 90 percent of the time, to respond to a medical call, according to department statistics. The fire department uses a system that relies on GPS to dispatch the closest available unit (ambulance, fire engine or ladder truck). The system can also look at traffic patterns.

“If it’s a critical call, the paramedic usually takes the lead and the EMT-trained firefighter will assist the paramedic,” Heller said.

Cardiac arrest is a common call. Typically, a fire engine with three firefighters and an ambulance with two medics will be dispatched.

“We never know exactly what the situation will be until we arrive on scene,” said Mike Espeland, a paramedic and firefighter on Truck 66.

At a cardiac-arrest incident, they are performing multiple vital tasks: controlling the person’s airway, performing chest compressions, watching the heart monitor and getting the defibrillator ready, putting an IV together, getting the appropriate drugs, supervising the patient, documenting the scene and explaining what’s going on to the patient’s loved ones and comforting them.

“It’s not enough. Five people on a full arrest, in my opinion, is not enough. We need another two bodies, at least,” said David Villarreal, another firefighter on Truck 66.

Extra hands and bodies may look excessive, but it is important in addressing the critical needs of the patient, the firefighters said.

“I can’t walk away from a patient to get stuff and bring it back, so I need to delegate to other people,” Heller said. “Everything is done simultaneously … and all the steps are done peripherally while I’m dealing with the patient.”

Responding to a medical call is no different than responding to a structure fire or motor vehicle accident, the firefighters said.

“There’s so much going through your head, and you’re filtering it through real quick,” Heller said. “You’re thinking about the same kinds of things (how many victims, what kind of injuries, what kind of equipment to bring in, etc.) … so you can get an idea in your head even before you get to the scene.”

There are also medical calls that require not just medical skills but also rescue skills, like car crashes and industrial accidents, Fire Captain Barry Marchisio said.

“We not only have the skills and abilities to extricate the person from the problem but … also the ability to treat that person medically,” he said.

When Villarreal responds to a car crash, the first thing he thinks about, he said, is where to park the 60-foot truck he’s driving.

“It has to be in a location that is suitable and useable,” he said.

Then Villarreal assesses the situation: Is extrication needed, in which case they use hydraulic shears and cutters, or medical aid?

“Usually when we get called, it’s a big wreck and we’re cutting people out of cars,” he said. “So when I’m driving in, I’m trying to figure out where I want to put the truck. Then second is how bad is the wreck, how many cars are involved and what kind of car is it.

“The training I have goes into play now. I feel like I’ve been doing this for so long (that) when I start cutting up a car … the technique is so far removed; it just happens. It’s second nature,” he said.

In a multivehicle crash, the firefighters have to assess the victims and decide who needs to get to the hospital first, which isn’t always the most critical victim, the firefighters said.

“The worst-off patient generally isn’t really the one we want to get out first,” Villarreal said. “It could be the person that is not as badly injured but is viable. We have to make those decisions … and it’s difficult.”

Training never stops

For the firefighters at Station 6, their 24 hours on is also spent in training exercises to prepare for potential emergencies: building collapses, vehicle accidents, structure fires and the like.

“We do a lot of drills,” said Manny Macias, a firefighter on Truck 66. “We set aside two to three hours a day just to do training, and we don’t do the same training every day because we want to be diverse in what we do.”

On this particular day, the crew staged a mock rescue in the San Francisquito Creek to practice how to rescue someone in steep terrain.

“One of the reasons we do drills is to keep our skills up,” Marchisio said. “A real call won’t happen exactly the way it will happen during a drill, so we have to be able to modify our operations and recover from the mistakes we might make, and training gives us the opportunity to practice that.”

When the firefighters and paramedics arrive on scene of the mock rescue, they assess the situation with urgency — quickly locating the victim and considering the best approach for access and rescue.

In this case, the firefighters performed a high-angle rescue, using the aerial ladder on Truck 66 as a high point to lift the victim out of the creek.

“Obviously the rescue of the person is important, but you have to go in and figure out what’s going on and make the scene safe before you go in and do what has to be done,” Truck 66’s Fire Captain Will Crump said.

The paramedics made their way down to the victim, a 40-year-old male with a head wound (played by a dummy), to give him initial medical care while the firefighters set up the hauling system.

Extending Truck 66’s 100-foot aerial ladder skyward to its full height, a stokes basket was suspended from a rope that was passed over a pulley system, which itself was attached to the top rung of the ladder. The process called for precision, as the firefighters made sure every rope, knot and pulley was secured in place.

The victim, strapped to a backboard to prevent possible spinal and neck injuries, was placed in the stokes basket.

Slowly — and methodically — the firefighters pulled the victim up with commands from a point person. Once the victim was out of the creek and on level ground, the firefighters and paramedics gathered around to review the training session.

“I like to give everyone an opportunity to share what they saw, what they did, what went well, and what they could have done better,” said Crump, who has been a firefighter for almost 20 years and was a corpsman in the Navy. “To me, everyone’s voice is valuable. I think when you do a drill and after the drill you talk about it, what you learn is more ingrained.”

Other hands-on exercises the firefighters perform include high-rise structure fires (which are done in a training tower at Station 6), ventilation, forcible entry, auto extrication and confined space and trench rescues.

Practicing the life-saving skills and techniques until they become instinctive is critically important, Crump said.

Still, no matter how many drills and training sessions they conduct, Macias said he is mindful that each real call they get could be the single worst moment for the person on the other end of the line.

“We see people on their worst day,” he said. “Our job is to do whatever we can to make things better.”

And the biggest thing firefighters can do, Macias said, is to be compassionate, as well as prepared to “go above the call of duty” when emergencies strike.

“We have a downtown area that has high-rise buildings. We have two major hospitals, a major university that creates its own problems, and we have thousands of acres of wildland, and that’s a whole different type of fire problem,” Marchisio said. “We have a railroad that goes through town and two major freeways and the baylands and all the rescue issues that happen out there.”

A state of readiness

Aside from responding to calls and training, personnel at Station 6 wait for calls, write reports, exercise, eat and watch TV. (Read “Working, living together forges bond at ‘home way from home'”)

For dinner, the crew pools money for groceries, and on this day, Marchisio made one of his specialty dishes: chicken marsala. The firefighters dined like family on the hearty pasta dish, Caesar salad and bread, sharing stories, laughing and poking fun at one another.

“Everyone gets along,” said Macias, who has been a firefighter for 22 years. “We’re having fun, but I guarantee you when those bells ring, everyone switches to a different mode, and it’s completely business. And that’s how it has to be because we have to have a way to relieve our minds, and I think we do it by joking around and laughing.”

After the dishes were done, the crew wound down. Some of the firefighters called home; others took showers or watched TV (Their favorite show: “Cops”). Heading for bed, some went to private rooms and others to dormitory-type sleeping quarters furnished with twin beds and old-fashioned tube TVs. (The firefighters bring their own pillows and sleeping bags or sheets and comforters.)

If there’s a call in the middle of the night, bells and lights go off in the sleeping area, and the firefighters have to jump out of bed and be on the fire apparatus, ready to go.

“We’re always in a state of readiness,” Ecoffey said. “We sleep, but it’s not a deep sleep.”

After dinner, on occasion, the firefighters go out together to get ice cream or frozen yogurt, which also gives them the opportunity to meet the public.

“Most of the time when we’re interacting with the community it’s during an emergency,” Crump said. “We actually get a lot of positive feedback for being out in the community on non-emergencies. People will see us out, and they always come up and strike up a conversation with us.”

Macias, who is a self-described “people-person,” said he enjoys talking to people and educating them on what being in the fire service entails because people may not know what firefighters actually do — “just like how we don’t know what a lot of people in the city do for a living.”

“That’s how I like to connect with people,” he said. “And the best way to connect with parents is through their children. You get the kids interested about firefighting and fire prevention, and their parents will want to know too.”

Building a rapport with the community is especially difficult for the firefighters because none of the department’s more than 90 firefighters (members working in the six fire stations as well as supervising chief officers) call Palo Alto home.

“Most firefighters live outside of the area and commute in, unlike a lot of places where the firefighters are able to live in the city they work in and are able to be a part of the community,” said Crump, who commutes from Burlingame.

Statistics from the fire department show only 32 firefighters live in Santa Clara County (in cities including Campbell, Cupertino, Gilroy, Los Altos Hills, Morgan Hill, Mountain View, San Jose, Santa Clara and Sunnyvale), 14 live in Alameda County, 13 in Contra Costa County, 12 in Santa Cruz County, and the rest are scattered around the Bay Area or even outside of it.

To build a bond with the community, the firefighters take part in events like block parties, the city’s Art and Wine Festival and Chili Cook Off, as well as union-sponsored events, they said.

But the high numbers of out-of-town firefighters could matter tremendously after a natural disaster like an earthquake, if emergency responders aren’t able to make it into the city, Fire Chief Nickel said.

“It’s an issue that all fire departments in the Bay Area are facing right now,” he said. “Particularly in Palo Alto and on the Peninsula, the home values here are so steep, even with salaries and benefits firefighters get, they can’t afford to live in Palo Alto.”

A majority of the firefighters live one-and-a-half to two hours away, Nickel said, “so you have to drive a great distance and when a disaster strikes, it’s going to be probably days before our crews can get back into the city.”

Fortunately, Palo Alto has active neighborhood preparedness groups that are trained and prepared, so if an emergency does strike, community members are able to step up, he added.

Regardless of where they reside, longtime firefighters like Crump, Espeland and Macias said they wouldn’t leave Palo Alto to work for a department closer to home or for one that pays more because they’re too invested in the community they serve.

“It’s a generational thing,” Espeland said. “We came from a generation where our parents worked somewhere for 30 years, and we grew up knowing that and that’s what we do. We’ve committed a lot of time, energy, blood, sweat and tears to this place, so it’s a little hard to walk away.”

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34 Comments

  1. Headline: “Medical emergencies, not fires, dominate firefighter runs”

    So can we now stop hearing from unions, etc. that firefighters merit high pay/benefits/early retirement for near-combat danger?

  2. I have much admiration for our fire department.

    However, I do have a question:

    Why does it take two police cars, a fire truck and an ambulance to handle an emergency?

    I have always wanted to find out, and may be now, I will.

  3. Having a large fire fighting staff is an issue with building codes severely reducing the occurance of fires. This should not mean that we redeploy expensive firefighters as less expensive EMTs. by conflating both are we costing ourselves more money?

  4. I don’t begrudge our fire department their coffee, but I do not think they should be blocking the bike lane outside Philz. Can’t they use the parking lot beside the liquer store instead?

  5. I don’t begrudge them anything.
    I’m just grateful they are willing to do this sometimes horrible job.
    I’ve always thought hard jobs deserve good pay, but
    when my eight year old daughter and I were struck and injured by a car on Mayfield some years ago,
    and a beautiful Amazon leapt from the truck to our rescue,
    my gratitude and support for the FDPA was cemented forever.
    Thank you, firefighters, for being there for us.

  6. I have to admit , this article sounds an awful lot like a recruiting poster for the Fire Department.

    I also have to wonder why we, the taxpayers, have to pay almost $200,000.00 per year for ambulance drivers.

  7. “Why does it take two police cars, a fire truck and an ambulance to handle an emergency?”
    I recall being told that the reason this is done is because the emergency personnel don’t really know what they are facing until they reach the location of the emergency. The only information they might have comes from a 911 call and the person making that call could be in a stressful situation. With two police cars, a fire truck and an ambulance they can handle most emergencies and quickly assess the situation to determine if more or less people and/or equipment are required. I have had to make several 911 calls in the past and I was always glad to see more responders.

  8. > I have had to make several 911 calls in the past and I was always
    > glad to see more responders

    If people making 911 calls were billed for all of the resources they were “glad to see” .. wonder if they would have a different point of view of this high level of resource utilization?

  9. Ventura OG has it right.

    re: parking lot… that’s not exactly an easy lot to get in or out of when it comes to fire trucks or paramedic trucks. If they get a call, they’ve got to go PDQ. Wasting time negotiating a small parking lot is no bueno.

  10. @ Wondering?

    Cost does not enter the discussion when it’s one of your loved ones lying on the floor dying. Personally,I would gladly have paid any amount to have the responders at my house instead of drinking coffee somewhere.

  11. > Cost does not enter the discussion when it’s one of
    > your loved ones lying on the floor dying.

    Cost enters every discussion—particularly when healthcare is involved.

    The US spends about $3T yearly on healthcare (almost $10,000 per person)—and that number probably does not include what are probably hidden costs of emergency responses that over-responds, like PA does.

    Ultimately, we have to have a realistic discussion about healthcare in this country that deals with topics from end-of-life expenditures to realistic emergency response. This discussion will also necessarily include lifestyle choices that lead to catastrophic medical situations.

  12. About 2/3 of firefighters in the USA are volunteer firefighters. They receive zero (0) to about twenty percent (20%) of a career firefighter’s compensation. They do the same job without padding shifts/overtime, demanding “hazardous duty” pay, spiking pensions and early retirement. Volunteer firefighters merit profound respect. The careerists, not as much.

  13. Taxpayer from Crescent Park — “Volunteer firefighters merit profound respect. The careerists, not as much.”

    One can only imagine how thrilled the “careerist” firefighters will be to hear THAT if your house ever caught fire…

  14. Dear Shallow, you’d be surprised to find out that most volunteer firefighters gain entry into the fire service by first volunteering. Do some research. Almost all current volunteer firefighters throughout the nation hold only minimum first responder level training if not EMT. To be fully trained as a paramedic costs about $15,000 and nearly two years of schooling. To become trained and certified in Hazardous Materials, technical rescue, vehicle extrication, etc, also costs thousands of dollars and a tremendous amount of training. Why then, answer me, would someone go through all of this training to volunteer for free? You’re talking about two totally different jobs. Welcome to the diverse job description of today’s paid, full-time firefighter. If you don’t like it, too bad. Hope the salaries and the benefits they get keep you tossing and turning at night. You’ll never appreciate them until you truly need them.

  15. @Taxpayer- Sure, I’d consider volunteering. Every town I grew up in had a VFD. For young men especially, getting in was competitive. Very many wanted in.

    @Shallow Alto- If a career firefighter would treat one house differently than another based on beliefs of the resident/owner, and let it burn, it confirms a less admirable character who shouldn’t be in any public safety role.

  16. Medical emergencies dominate because the average Palo Altan is really pretty old. After all how many people can afford to move to Palo Alto as a buyer or renter?

  17. We are out of balance, and as tapayers, completely overpaying for the service we receive from the fire department.

    If you reduced total compensation by 25% and switched the bloated pensions to 401k plans, we would still have hundreds of qualified applicants for each opening. These are GED level jobs with on the job danger that falls well under agriculture, construction, or many other much lower paying fields with similar levels of physical and specialized skill requirements.

    If you did likewise with the police, we would probably suffer attrition and have difficulty filling the open jobs.

    Then again, we are a city that tolerates a government that spends about a quarter million tax dollars per year a chief PR hack (Claudia Keith — you can look her up) to tell us what a great job they are doing.

  18. Taxpayer from Crescent Park — “If a career firefighter would treat one house differently than another based on beliefs of the resident/owner, and let it burn, it confirms a less admirable character who shouldn’t be in any public safety role.”

    First off, your statement is as tone-deaf as it gets. Second, it’s not the firefighters’ attitude that’s at issue here; it’s yours. Your contempt towards “careerist” firefighters should make it so that you should NEVER receive the benefit of the doubt, ever.

  19. Shallow Alto:

    You made the first insinuation that you’re now indignant about, quoted below.

    One can only imagine how thrilled the “careerist” firefighters will be to hear THAT if your house ever caught fire…

    The only one impugning the professionalism of our firefighters, as overpaid as they are, is you. No one is taking issue with your professionalism. Only the market rate, on the backs of the tax paying public

  20. Maria — You really have NO idea what you’re talking about, do you?

    Here’s what Taxpayer originally said: “They [volunteer firefighters] do the same job without padding shifts/overtime, demanding “hazardous duty” pay, spiking pensions and early retirement. Volunteer firefighters merit profound respect. The careerists, not as much.”

    Now tell me, who is disrespecting whom?

  21. Shallow Alto is arguing like a petulant teenager looking for manufactured offense as an excuse to slam a door.

    I also respect someone who volunteers their time for a purpose more than someone who is overpaid for serving the same purpose. If you can’t see the difference it’s simply because you don’t want to.

  22. The whole “why does it take so many people to respond to a medical emergency” does not make much sense to me anymore, after working as a physician.

    When you are in the hospital and someone is in cardiac arrest and we call a “code blue”, staff from all parts of the hospital descend on the patient. We have anesthesia rush to manage the patient’s airway, ICU nurses to handle IV access and CPR, and even the pharmacists rushes an additional drug kit down- all in addition to the floor nurses who cram into the room to help. You’ll get a similar response if there is a stroke or heart attack on the hospital floor and a rapid response team is activated.

    The same thing applies to a medical emergency out-of-hospital. Resuscitation is a TEAM EFFORT. You wouldn’t want just 2 providers taking care of a cardiac arrest in the hospital. Why should you have fewer medical providers on scene just because it is out of hospital? Even the police have their role as they assist with crowd control, traffic management and getting details from bystanders and family.

    Folks that say “there are too many people” going to an emergency, you don’t really know what these calls entail!

  23. Maria — “I also respect someone who volunteers their time for a purpose more than someone who is overpaid for serving the same purpose. If you can’t see the difference it’s simply because you don’t want to.”

    People with that kind absolutely disgust me.

    But that is why they call it Shallow Alto, isn’t it now?

  24. I’ve rarely heard the term shallow alto. It seems to be the term of some one who is projecting their inadequacies on to others. Union fire employees in Northern California are overpaid and underworked. It is a relatively safe, easy job with ridiculous benefits. If it wasn’t for unions flooding the campaign coffers of weak politicians, this problem would be corrected. There is no comparison between the job of a police officer (dangerous, stressful, many varied skills required) and a union fire employee (cushy job where more time is spent sleeping or rescuing cats than fighting fires).

  25. $200000 each per year and the hardest parts of their job is to park in the fire lane at Safeway while they work out what they are having for breakfast, lunch, or dinner. Fuel costs alone for these bloated government employees are astronomical. I say disband all fire stations, replace them with ambulances. Have one fire station situated in mid town and cross train ambulance drivers to be firefighters, for the absolute rare occurrence a fire actually breaks out. Oh and cut these ridiculous salaries by 60%. $80k a year for a job you need a GED for and barely get called into action is quite reasonable.

  26. Taxpayer from Community Center — “I’ve rarely heard the term shallow alto.”

    If you were to leave your self-imposed cocoon, you would hear it a LOT more.

    “Union fire employees in Northern California are overpaid and underworked. It is a relatively safe, easy job with ridiculous benefits.”

    Rather rich, isn’t it? And if it were such a cushy job, why aren’t you doing it?

  27. And if it were such a cushy job, why aren’t you doing it?

    This is inflammatory drivel. Maybe “Taxpayer” would want a gig as an overpaid union firefighter, or perhaps he has the potential/skills/ambition that he can do better in another field. Whatever the case, its purely irrelevant. The relevant point is that we have hundreds of qualified applicants for every open position, so we’re overpaying our firefighters what they are worth on the market.

  28. So tell me Maria — are you then saying you would put out your own fires? Or that you would deal with your own medical emergencies?

    Because if you truly believe that those firefighters are “overpaid,” then you should be willing to take over from them, and do their tasks by yourself. Especially if, as Taxpayer would have it, it “is a relatively safe, easy job with ridiculous benefits.”

    The manner with which public service employees are being slandered here on this discussion board is absolutely amazing.

  29. @shallow – Are you having a difficult time understanding the difference between not wanting to overpay for a service vs wanting to perform the service ourselves. I’d rather pay some one to change my oil, but that doesn’t mean I want to pay a union employee $200K a year to change my oil if there are qualified folks who will do it for less. Do you understand the difference?

    When I graduated from high school I wanted to be challenged. So I went to college, then grad school. Becoming a union fire employee didn’t seem interesting or challenging. But I had relatives who did go that route. That is all fine but I don’t want to pay someone $200K with an early retirement pension for a service that folks would do for $80K. I?s that hard to understand?

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