News

Tri-city fireworks summit examines enforcement, culture change

East Palo Alto, Menlo Park and Palo Alto officials take a serious look at stopping the explosions

Boxes of used fireworks are piled up at the corner of Bell Street and Lincoln Street in East Palo Alto on June 24. Photo by Sue Dremann.

Loud explosions on East Palo Alto's city streets formed a backdrop for a public meeting on Monday night as city council members and chiefs of police and fire departments from Palo Alto, Menlo Park and East Palo Alto met to discuss the growing problem of fireworks.

The virtual meeting, which was convened by the city of East Palo Alto and chaired by Mayor Regina Wallace-Jones, laid out specific steps city leaders hope to take to reduce the number of explosive devices that have been emanating from nightfall until the early morning hours in East Palo Alto and Menlo Park for at least the last two months. Fireworks, except for those designated as "safe and sane," are illegal in the three cities and possession is a misdemeanor.

City leaders planned to take a two-pronged approach: increasing enforcement in the short term and outlining efforts to change the culture behind the use of fireworks in the weeks and months ahead.

The fireworks are largely associated with July 4, and to some extent, New Year's Eve, but this year's massive and persistent explosions have alarmed local leaders. The illegal fireworks have been bigger and more powerful than in years past. The firecrackers and bottle rockets of a few years ago have given way to M-80s, M-1000s and mortars that shower yards and homes with sparks. It's more than a colorful display. The booms are a public health issue, impacting seniors, triggering trauma for veterans, causing lost sleep for many residents and building anxiety in pets.

The fireworks are also destructive. This month, the Menlo Park Fire Protection District has put out six fires, including ones that threatened homes, Chief Harold Schapelhouman said.

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Police chiefs from Palo Alto, Menlo Park and East Palo Alto also spoke at the meeting. East Palo Alto police Chief Al Pardini said the large increase is thought to be due to pent-up stress from the COVID-19 stay-at-home orders, canceled fireworks shows and the accessibility of large fireworks in nearby states, particularly Nevada. The devices also are more powerful because vendors have shifted to consumers the more powerful fireworks they usually sell for professional shows since the public celebrations have been canceled due to public health concerns.

"We are going to be dealing with airborne devices," Pardini said. Officers are trying to track them and are out on the streets pursuing the offenders. Next week, he plans to release information about the department's current investigations surrounding fireworks use, he said.

Menlo Park Mayor Cecilia Taylor said the city has received more than 200 calls regarding fireworks complaints. "It's been hard to sleep at night," she said.

Palo Alto police Chief Bob Jonsen said they have not found anyone in the city in possession of fireworks but they have responded to 28 calls regarding noise complaints about fireworks and 10 calls related to firearms. They found three incidents where bullets were falling to the ground. The complaints have taken place from 7 p.m. to 4 a.m. and the fireworks were observed to be coming from East Palo Alto, he said.

Menlo Park and East Palo Alto police will be beefing up staff for the July 4 holiday. Menlo Park police Chief Dave Bertini said he is doubling staffing, with increased patrols in the Belle Haven neighborhood. Pardini is tripling East Palo Alto's staffing.

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ShotSpotter, a gunshot-tracking system that the department uses, filters out anything but gunshots, however, it archives other sounds, such as fireworks. The department plans to use the system to identify hot spots, but the technology isn't likely to result in real-time responses by police. Each activation is sent immediately to laptops in patrol cars, which make it too difficult for officers to discern calls that are gunshot-related, he said. ShotSpotter would also likely not pinpoint the exact house where the fireworks are being set off, but rather approximate the sound within about four to six homes, he said. Looking at the archived data, investigators look for common threads such as similar addresses, Pardini said.

Those igniting fireworks frequently run away, making it difficult to catch them by the time officers arrive. By law, police can only arrest or cite someone they have directly witnessed shooting off the fireworks, he said.

This year, some home camera systems showed that people are driving around the city discharging fireworks from their vehicles, according to Pardini.

East Palo Alto City Councilwoman Lisa Gauthier suggested police could gather video from home Ring technology systems to assist with identifying the violators, which Pardini said could help. He is asking the public to review their home-security cameras and share any information with police to help track the location of the fireworks. Officers can collect the fireworks that are left behind and turn them over to the fire district. "We make a citation when we can," he said.

Bertini also said it's difficult to enforce fireworks laws. There's a fine of up to $1,000 on the books and possession is a misdemeanor, he said.

The number of fireworks being moved through the area each year is staggering. A couple of years ago, the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection broke up a distribution ring in remote locations such as the Stanislaus National Forest, where big rigs full of fireworks were brought in and dispersed to distributors, Pardini said.

Changing a culture

Faced with such odds, Pardini and others said the only way to create meaningful change is to alter the culture that is at the root of the problem.

Menlo Park City Councilman Ray Mueller asked if the police have ever seen a buyback program for fireworks.

"I confess I actually love fireworks and grew up loving them. In legal areas, I have used them. The issue I see in enforcement is you are asking someone who has made an investment and spent money not to use it," he said. They are stuck putting it in their closet and they lose their investment, which is not an incentive to turn the fireworks over to police.

The police chiefs said they have not seen a buyback program anywhere for fireworks, unlike similar gun-buyback programs. The main impediment is funding, they said.

Menlo Park City Councilwoman Catherine Carlton suggested that rather than fining people for use, the cities should make restrictive fines for people selling fireworks and use the money for the buyback program.

Menlo Park fire Chief Harold Schapelhouman was against a buyback program, however. He said that when the city located 600 pounds of fireworks in a home, the fire district stored them in a metal container for later disposal by the proper authorities. It took two years for the explosives to be moved. In the meantime, the gunpowder was sweating, which posed its own problems, he said.

Instead, he recommended surveillance, such as using cameras on a pole or at strategic locations, similar to what is used in the Santa Cruz Mountains to sweep large areas for fires and fireworks explosions. Although controversial, the agency also has drones that could be used to find offenders, he said.

East Palo Alto City Councilman Ruben Abrica stressed that any culture change would not occur without the input of the community. Historically, East Palo Alto has worked through difficult challenges by working with its community.

"We can't realistically expect the police to do everything. These are times when the whole issue of police and community is presenting challenges," he added.

He suggested bringing in the city's many organizations and activists to help talk to people in neighborhoods and on their blocks and to distribute information to residents.

"Some people have the will, authority and compunction to go and talk to those people directly. Otherwise, we are going to end up being disappointed and pointing the finger at the police and I don't think that's fair," he said.

Other city leaders agreed that building up volunteers through nonprofit organizations and emergency-preparations groups could help disseminate information and deliver a unified message to neighbors who are involved in releasing fireworks. Organizing on a block-by-block basis and creating "quiet block" campaigns would help engage the community in pinpointing the trouble spots. Pardini said such community interventions could help.

The city has successfully used community-policing techniques to reduce criminal behavior in the past by bringing in nonprofit leaders to talk to people suspected of criminal activity.

Wallace-Jones apologized for the fireworks.

"I will not offer any excuse for that except to say I do plead a little forgiveness and goodwill from our neighbors," she said. The city has been dealing with the pandemic and protests sparked by the killing of George Floyd while in custody of Minneapolis police, which until now, have occupied much of officials' and staff's attention.

Turning to the fireworks problem, she said no one has been sitting on their hands. She plans to hold another meeting after July 4 to discuss how strategies they discussed, such as training the block volunteers and adding a surveillance mechanism to support the police, are progressing and how they can be leveraged in the coming weeks or months.

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Sue Dremann
 
Sue Dremann is a veteran journalist who joined the Palo Alto Weekly in 2001. She is a breaking news and general assignment reporter who also covers the regional environmental, health and crime beats. Read more >>

Follow Palo Alto Online and the Palo Alto Weekly on Twitter @paloaltoweekly, Facebook and on Instagram @paloaltoonline for breaking news, local events, photos, videos and more.

Tri-city fireworks summit examines enforcement, culture change

East Palo Alto, Menlo Park and Palo Alto officials take a serious look at stopping the explosions

by / Palo Alto Weekly

Uploaded: Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 9:51 am
Updated: Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 1:43 pm

Loud explosions on East Palo Alto's city streets formed a backdrop for a public meeting on Monday night as city council members and chiefs of police and fire departments from Palo Alto, Menlo Park and East Palo Alto met to discuss the growing problem of fireworks.

The virtual meeting, which was convened by the city of East Palo Alto and chaired by Mayor Regina Wallace-Jones, laid out specific steps city leaders hope to take to reduce the number of explosive devices that have been emanating from nightfall until the early morning hours in East Palo Alto and Menlo Park for at least the last two months. Fireworks, except for those designated as "safe and sane," are illegal in the three cities and possession is a misdemeanor.

City leaders planned to take a two-pronged approach: increasing enforcement in the short term and outlining efforts to change the culture behind the use of fireworks in the weeks and months ahead.

The fireworks are largely associated with July 4, and to some extent, New Year's Eve, but this year's massive and persistent explosions have alarmed local leaders. The illegal fireworks have been bigger and more powerful than in years past. The firecrackers and bottle rockets of a few years ago have given way to M-80s, M-1000s and mortars that shower yards and homes with sparks. It's more than a colorful display. The booms are a public health issue, impacting seniors, triggering trauma for veterans, causing lost sleep for many residents and building anxiety in pets.

The fireworks are also destructive. This month, the Menlo Park Fire Protection District has put out six fires, including ones that threatened homes, Chief Harold Schapelhouman said.

Police chiefs from Palo Alto, Menlo Park and East Palo Alto also spoke at the meeting. East Palo Alto police Chief Al Pardini said the large increase is thought to be due to pent-up stress from the COVID-19 stay-at-home orders, canceled fireworks shows and the accessibility of large fireworks in nearby states, particularly Nevada. The devices also are more powerful because vendors have shifted to consumers the more powerful fireworks they usually sell for professional shows since the public celebrations have been canceled due to public health concerns.

"We are going to be dealing with airborne devices," Pardini said. Officers are trying to track them and are out on the streets pursuing the offenders. Next week, he plans to release information about the department's current investigations surrounding fireworks use, he said.

Menlo Park Mayor Cecilia Taylor said the city has received more than 200 calls regarding fireworks complaints. "It's been hard to sleep at night," she said.

Palo Alto police Chief Bob Jonsen said they have not found anyone in the city in possession of fireworks but they have responded to 28 calls regarding noise complaints about fireworks and 10 calls related to firearms. They found three incidents where bullets were falling to the ground. The complaints have taken place from 7 p.m. to 4 a.m. and the fireworks were observed to be coming from East Palo Alto, he said.

Menlo Park and East Palo Alto police will be beefing up staff for the July 4 holiday. Menlo Park police Chief Dave Bertini said he is doubling staffing, with increased patrols in the Belle Haven neighborhood. Pardini is tripling East Palo Alto's staffing.

ShotSpotter, a gunshot-tracking system that the department uses, filters out anything but gunshots, however, it archives other sounds, such as fireworks. The department plans to use the system to identify hot spots, but the technology isn't likely to result in real-time responses by police. Each activation is sent immediately to laptops in patrol cars, which make it too difficult for officers to discern calls that are gunshot-related, he said. ShotSpotter would also likely not pinpoint the exact house where the fireworks are being set off, but rather approximate the sound within about four to six homes, he said. Looking at the archived data, investigators look for common threads such as similar addresses, Pardini said.

Those igniting fireworks frequently run away, making it difficult to catch them by the time officers arrive. By law, police can only arrest or cite someone they have directly witnessed shooting off the fireworks, he said.

This year, some home camera systems showed that people are driving around the city discharging fireworks from their vehicles, according to Pardini.

East Palo Alto City Councilwoman Lisa Gauthier suggested police could gather video from home Ring technology systems to assist with identifying the violators, which Pardini said could help. He is asking the public to review their home-security cameras and share any information with police to help track the location of the fireworks. Officers can collect the fireworks that are left behind and turn them over to the fire district. "We make a citation when we can," he said.

Bertini also said it's difficult to enforce fireworks laws. There's a fine of up to $1,000 on the books and possession is a misdemeanor, he said.

The number of fireworks being moved through the area each year is staggering. A couple of years ago, the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection broke up a distribution ring in remote locations such as the Stanislaus National Forest, where big rigs full of fireworks were brought in and dispersed to distributors, Pardini said.

Changing a culture

Faced with such odds, Pardini and others said the only way to create meaningful change is to alter the culture that is at the root of the problem.

Menlo Park City Councilman Ray Mueller asked if the police have ever seen a buyback program for fireworks.

"I confess I actually love fireworks and grew up loving them. In legal areas, I have used them. The issue I see in enforcement is you are asking someone who has made an investment and spent money not to use it," he said. They are stuck putting it in their closet and they lose their investment, which is not an incentive to turn the fireworks over to police.

The police chiefs said they have not seen a buyback program anywhere for fireworks, unlike similar gun-buyback programs. The main impediment is funding, they said.

Menlo Park City Councilwoman Catherine Carlton suggested that rather than fining people for use, the cities should make restrictive fines for people selling fireworks and use the money for the buyback program.

Menlo Park fire Chief Harold Schapelhouman was against a buyback program, however. He said that when the city located 600 pounds of fireworks in a home, the fire district stored them in a metal container for later disposal by the proper authorities. It took two years for the explosives to be moved. In the meantime, the gunpowder was sweating, which posed its own problems, he said.

Instead, he recommended surveillance, such as using cameras on a pole or at strategic locations, similar to what is used in the Santa Cruz Mountains to sweep large areas for fires and fireworks explosions. Although controversial, the agency also has drones that could be used to find offenders, he said.

East Palo Alto City Councilman Ruben Abrica stressed that any culture change would not occur without the input of the community. Historically, East Palo Alto has worked through difficult challenges by working with its community.

"We can't realistically expect the police to do everything. These are times when the whole issue of police and community is presenting challenges," he added.

He suggested bringing in the city's many organizations and activists to help talk to people in neighborhoods and on their blocks and to distribute information to residents.

"Some people have the will, authority and compunction to go and talk to those people directly. Otherwise, we are going to end up being disappointed and pointing the finger at the police and I don't think that's fair," he said.

Other city leaders agreed that building up volunteers through nonprofit organizations and emergency-preparations groups could help disseminate information and deliver a unified message to neighbors who are involved in releasing fireworks. Organizing on a block-by-block basis and creating "quiet block" campaigns would help engage the community in pinpointing the trouble spots. Pardini said such community interventions could help.

The city has successfully used community-policing techniques to reduce criminal behavior in the past by bringing in nonprofit leaders to talk to people suspected of criminal activity.

Wallace-Jones apologized for the fireworks.

"I will not offer any excuse for that except to say I do plead a little forgiveness and goodwill from our neighbors," she said. The city has been dealing with the pandemic and protests sparked by the killing of George Floyd while in custody of Minneapolis police, which until now, have occupied much of officials' and staff's attention.

Turning to the fireworks problem, she said no one has been sitting on their hands. She plans to hold another meeting after July 4 to discuss how strategies they discussed, such as training the block volunteers and adding a surveillance mechanism to support the police, are progressing and how they can be leveraged in the coming weeks or months.

Comments

C
Palo Verde
on Jun 30, 2020 at 10:36 am
C, Palo Verde
on Jun 30, 2020 at 10:36 am

> This month, the Menlo Park Fire Protection District has put out six fires, including ones that threatened homes

I think it would be a terrible blow to the community if fireworks resulted in residents losing their homes, not to mention loved ones, in the middle of a viral epidemic. With summer and lack of gardening, our homes are particularly vulnerable to fires. Regardless of the reason for fireworks, none of them are more important than safety. Surely there are alternatives to recreation and statements.


jguislin
Crescent Park
on Jun 30, 2020 at 10:48 am
jguislin, Crescent Park
on Jun 30, 2020 at 10:48 am

I applaud the efforts of our officials to bring together their experience to look for solutions to this serious issue. It will require continued dialog and community engagement to bring more peace back into our neighborhoods. The question remains open about how our three small cities can address the state and nationwide issue of illegal supply. Perhaps we should consider seeking assistance from bigger organizations like the California State Police, FBI, ATF, etc.


resident
Downtown North
on Jun 30, 2020 at 10:56 am
resident, Downtown North
on Jun 30, 2020 at 10:56 am

Are these fireworks being manufactured and distributed by legitimate businesses? I say follow the money and prosecute the suppliers. Putting them out of business will make it a lot harder for residents to get their hands on the illegal products.


Eyes emoji
Fairmeadow
on Jun 30, 2020 at 11:13 am
Eyes emoji , Fairmeadow
on Jun 30, 2020 at 11:13 am

I agree that the overuse of fireworks is bad and should be stopped. But try investigating the police department as well, because in other cities they’re planting fireworks. Don’t know if this is the case here, but it could be... And if you do arrest people for fireworks and it’s not the police is it too much to ask to arrest them peacefully and not brutalize them?.


JR
Palo Verde
on Jun 30, 2020 at 11:18 am
JR, Palo Verde
on Jun 30, 2020 at 11:18 am

It was a mistake to cancel the fireworks this year at Shoreline and other places in the Bay Area. Now on the 4th many will be headed to Fresno and other areas outside of the Bay Area with fireworks shows. Others will choose to stay home and hold their own illegal fireworks show. It is a disaster in the making that could have been so easily prevented.


Solution options
Crescent Park
on Jun 30, 2020 at 12:05 pm
Solution options , Crescent Park
on Jun 30, 2020 at 12:05 pm

jguislin,

“Perhaps we should consider seeking assistance from bigger organizations like the California State Police, FBI, ATF, etc.”

Yes - that was not sufficiently covered last night. There should be an investigation and accountability to the communities about how the cancellation of firework events resulted in the sale/dump to non-professionals.

The burden is being put on the communities most affected when this looks like a perfect storm fueled by the dumping of these dangerous devices.

How do professionals get access; how are excess supplies controlled. Why are these allowed to be legal anywhere in the country to then so easily smuggled intra- state. For this intelligence, local resources can only go so far and then to do something about it. But efforts must be led by the cities to get a serious investigation done asap, before New Years and solution options.

Short term, what can County Sherrifs do? The governor, tech companies, call everybody in.


Resident
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jun 30, 2020 at 12:14 pm
Resident, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jun 30, 2020 at 12:14 pm

As far as I can see, the culture has changed this year.

In previous years the illegal firework culture was for about a week either side of the 4th. It was something that we generally accepted as being what happens every year.

This is not the case this year. The bangs started mid May, started early in the evening and continued sometimes beyond midnight, and it happens every single evening.

This is a culture change. It is not pleasant for most of us, very alarming for some, and causing real problems for those with health issues, the young, the elderly, and animals. This is not a pleasant culture change. Those who think it is OK to disturb the community for weeks on end are not being neighborly or celebratory. This is illegal activity and very disturbing to see that people who live among us or in a nearby community are continuing this anti-social behavior with total disregard to the harm they are causing.


Solutions options
Crescent Park
on Jun 30, 2020 at 12:45 pm
Solutions options, Crescent Park
on Jun 30, 2020 at 12:45 pm

Resident,

"In previous years the illegal firework culture was for about a week either side of the 4th. It was something that we generally accepted as being what happens every year."

This year is different because of a dump of explosives that "professionals" could not use and these devices ended up on the streets.

The culture issue I note is that noise harm is generally accepted. Outcry for help on noise gets ridiculed and ignored.

If this issue did not have a fire component, would anyone not affected even care?

Would people still care if noise was bothering health workers being deprived of sleep? How many hours would be good enough for them 3-4 hours?

Would people be convening about the elderly who cannot go on Zoom and organize to get help from officials about the booms?

The POSITIVE culture change is that enough people are saying we care. We care and want to do something about it.


Jim H
Community Center
on Jun 30, 2020 at 12:48 pm
Jim H, Community Center
on Jun 30, 2020 at 12:48 pm

If residents of these cities can find the trucks that are selling these fireworks, maybe the police should use the same way to find them. How do they advertise so that people can find them?
These guys could be fined heavily and charged with selling illegal fireworks.


Hmmm
East Palo Alto
on Jun 30, 2020 at 12:55 pm
Hmmm, East Palo Alto
on Jun 30, 2020 at 12:55 pm

Let’s hope details are reported on the supposed fireworks bust this morning!


Anonymous
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Jun 30, 2020 at 1:57 pm
Anonymous, Duveneck/St. Francis
on Jun 30, 2020 at 1:57 pm

I think this article is too soft and casual about this situation. Aside from the obvious fire risk, my God! - this is excessive and disrespectful. Illegal fireworks involved to some extent. I think police should stake out a couple cars and arrest people.


Solutions options
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jun 30, 2020 at 2:49 pm
Solutions options, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jun 30, 2020 at 2:49 pm


One of the states that allows the sale of explosives wrapped in 4th of July packaging is Pennsylvania

see
Web Link


"After a barrage of resident complaints, a Pennsylvania state senator doesn’t want to just change the state’s fireworks law allowing residents to buy and use consumer-grade pyrotechnics, she wants to get rid of the law altogether.

“It has gotten so bad I felt we had to do something dramatic to draw attention this,” said state Sen. Judith Schwank, D-Berks County."

When I mail a package, I am asked if there are any explosives in my mail, what a farce that after regular people do their part there is organized chaos and abuse allowed to fall on unsuspecting people.

Maybe the Weekly can report on where it's legal to sell.


Heidi Schwenk
Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Jun 30, 2020 at 11:21 pm
Heidi Schwenk, Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Jun 30, 2020 at 11:21 pm

I hope the three cities post a request on NextDoor, for all citizens to report where they hear and or see fireworks near their homes. There have been several discussions on NextDoor for weeks about this issue. Some citizens have confronted their neighbors to stop using them, especially during the early mornings, such as 3am! Unfortunately the neighbors have replied to the requests with abuse and rude language, and continue to fire them off! The police haven’t been able to help because the people aren’t caught setting them off; they have to have them in their possession in order for the police to fine them.


Duveneck
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Jul 2, 2020 at 10:25 pm
Duveneck , Duveneck/St. Francis
on Jul 2, 2020 at 10:25 pm

Try calling PAPD with a 2am complaint about fireworks or gunshots. “Sorry, Shot Spotter says it’s fireworks” or “call us back if you think the gunshots are on our side of the creek.” PAPD has never cared or never cared to help EPA PD.


got all the story?
Crescent Park
on Jul 4, 2020 at 7:53 pm
got all the story?, Crescent Park
on Jul 4, 2020 at 7:53 pm

Culture change??? what a joke, whatever political correct phrase that is meant to be. Get serious about hoodlums setting off fireworks at 2am . Increase fines especially for the ones selling.


Resident
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 4, 2020 at 9:49 pm
Resident, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 4, 2020 at 9:49 pm

It seems that canceling the displays has only made the unofficial displays more prevalent. 9.48 on 4th July, sounds like professional grade fireworks have been going on for the last 90 minutes at least.

F to whoever decided to cancel the displays.


Resident 1-Adobe Meadows
Adobe-Meadow
on Jul 5, 2020 at 1:41 pm
Resident 1-Adobe Meadows, Adobe-Meadow
on Jul 5, 2020 at 1:41 pm

Last night there were explosions all night long and they were not in EPA. Is someone saying that so that our city is off the hook for any action? They were at the low end of South PA, some in vicinity of my house, and then some going to the north end. Some were really "deep" - any destructive results? Were they in the creek? Putting explosives in the drains? Something is very wrong here and saying the are in EPA is part of the wrong.


Resident
Midtown
on Jul 6, 2020 at 11:01 pm
Resident, Midtown
on Jul 6, 2020 at 11:01 pm

On July 4th we drove around Palo Alto and were appalled at the lack of American flags being flown. We understand about the dissatisfaction with the current administration, but not respecting the flag on the Fourth of July!? Most homes that had Teslas parked in the driveway did not have flags out. This country that has enabled folks to achieve great prosperity, and not a single gesture if gratitude?!

What happened to Palo Alto?




Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 7, 2020 at 9:16 am
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 7, 2020 at 9:16 am

Posted by Resident, a resident of Midtown

>> What happened to Palo Alto?

I will put a flag up on next Jan 20th, I *hope*, when we have a government that respects the US Constitution. The current administration is doing everything it can to undermine the 1st and 14th Amendments.


Resident
Mayfield
on Jul 7, 2020 at 5:48 pm
Resident, Mayfield
on Jul 7, 2020 at 5:48 pm

As far as freedom of speech goes, Palo Alto Online is one of the biggest offenders. If ones views are not aligned with the far left, your post will be removed. Thank goodness it has gotten better, they must have ditched one of their moderators.

@ Anon

I remember a quote in a movie from the The Band of Brothers:

“You salute the rank, not the man.”

This reminds me of your comment in regards to not putting up the flag on The Fourth of July.





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