News

Guest Opinion: The 'unmasking' of Palo Alto

A man walks past CVS Pharmacy in downtown Palo Alto on April 29. Photo by Magali Gauthier.

A resident of our fair town recently posted the following rejoinder to busybodies (like me) who complain about people who refuse to wear face masks in public: "I was hiking in Foothills Park yesterday; I needed all the oxygen my lungs could breathe in. I could not have managed that hill if I was wearing a mask."

As a runner, I can confirm, dear neighbors, that the hiker in question is in good company. A very large number of our fellow citizens are also ignoring this simple public health directive.** Accordingly, although I address my comments to the anonymous poster, I invite the rest of the town to listen in.

To begin with, I would respectfully suggest that these are exactly the type of folks — huffing and puffing, sneezing and wheezing — who should be wearing a mask, if not for their own health, then for the rest of us. At the very least, it can be worn around the neck and raised to cover nose and mouth when, like Oedipus, we encounter a stranger on the path.

If that's too much to ask, and one finds oneself gasping for air in the foothills, here's a quick mental exercise to try: Picture yourself — or one of your parents — gasping for air in an Intensive Care Unit, strapped to a gurney, plugged into a ventilator, shrouded in a plastic tent, surrounded by health care workers dressed as if they have just come from outer space, as your lungs slowly (or quickly) turn into a brick and your family pays their final respects to you on Zoom.

I am mildly asthmatic and I know a bit about breathing: COVID-19 is worse. A lot worse.

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Perhaps our maskless hiker is thinking, "But I'm young and healthy and I'm not shedding any toxic, virus-laden droplets, so why should I inconvenience myself?" My response is simple: Nobody knows that. Period. Full Stop. Even someone tested last week has no idea whether they were subsequently exposed to this deadly virus and are at risk of infecting others.

Look up the word "asymptomatic" in the dictionary. Did any of those well-documented "super-spreaders" of the virus deliberately set out to infect their fellow churchgoers, family members or teammates? Unlikely.

Barry Katz is a longtime resident of Palo Alto's Ventura district. Courtesy Barry Katz.

Yes, it's an imposition, but let's put it in perspective. I grew up hearing stories about World War II and the "impositions" my parents' generation were asked to endure as the war raged: blackouts in London; Victory Gardens in Chicago; ration cards; donations of everything from blood plasma to scrap metal in support of the common effort.

By contrast, wearing a face mask in public doesn't seem like a lot to ask. Hyperbole, you say? There seems to be some misconception that, because we appear to have "flattened the curve," the war against the coronavirus has been won. Sorry to puncture that particular fantasy, but the point of flattening the curve is not to shorten but precisely to extend the length of the pandemic so as not to overwhelm the health care system in its early stages (as happened in New York and Milan).

It's worth recalling, in this regard, that the Spanish flu of 1918 came in waves: The first was relatively mild and many politicians dismissed it as seasonal flu (sound familiar?). With people's defenses down and their immune systems compromised, the second wave struck in September and went on to kill between 50 and 100 million people, depending on who you read and how you count.

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It's only May. Barring a miracle (or a presidential decree), this highly infectious virus will be with us for a long time. About a thousand Americans are dying from it every day. The Fake News calls it "an incalculable loss." I agree.

Our pervasive sense of denial is abetted by the sheer unreality of it all: gentle breezes are blowing; melodious birds are singing; fragrant flowers are blooming; the foothills beckon ... and by the time this column is published, 100,000 Americans will have lost their lives and 40 million will have lost their livelihoods.

I finally begin to understand the genius of the Surrealists with their melted clocks and improbable contrasts: Lautréamont's "chance juxtaposition of a sewing machine and an umbrella on a dissecting table" suddenly feels banal and everyday.

So please, reluctant face coverers, spare us the dissecting table (and the autopsy table) and wear the damn mask. It's not that hard, and refusing to do so is anti-social, irresponsible and unethical.

Let's all do it for ourselves, for our neighbors, and for the doctors, nurses, paramedics and ambulance drivers who are, literally, dying to help us out if we, or the stranger who passes us on the hiking trail, gets sick.

Barry Katz is a longtime resident of Palo Alto's Ventura district. He is a long-distance runner, a mild asthmatic and prides himself on being an asymptomatic public nuisance.

** Editor's note: Santa Clara County strongly recommends that people wear masks outside of their home but does not require masks to be worn while engaging in recreational activities. The order states, however: "People are recommended to have a face covering with them and readily accessible when exercising, even if they're not wearing it at that moment."

Find comprehensive coverage on the Midpeninsula's response to the new coronavirus by Palo Alto Online, the Mountain View Voice and the Almanac here.

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Guest Opinion: The 'unmasking' of Palo Alto

by / Contributor

Uploaded: Fri, May 29, 2020, 6:49 am
Updated: Fri, May 29, 2020, 10:38 am

A resident of our fair town recently posted the following rejoinder to busybodies (like me) who complain about people who refuse to wear face masks in public: "I was hiking in Foothills Park yesterday; I needed all the oxygen my lungs could breathe in. I could not have managed that hill if I was wearing a mask."

As a runner, I can confirm, dear neighbors, that the hiker in question is in good company. A very large number of our fellow citizens are also ignoring this simple public health directive.** Accordingly, although I address my comments to the anonymous poster, I invite the rest of the town to listen in.

To begin with, I would respectfully suggest that these are exactly the type of folks — huffing and puffing, sneezing and wheezing — who should be wearing a mask, if not for their own health, then for the rest of us. At the very least, it can be worn around the neck and raised to cover nose and mouth when, like Oedipus, we encounter a stranger on the path.

If that's too much to ask, and one finds oneself gasping for air in the foothills, here's a quick mental exercise to try: Picture yourself — or one of your parents — gasping for air in an Intensive Care Unit, strapped to a gurney, plugged into a ventilator, shrouded in a plastic tent, surrounded by health care workers dressed as if they have just come from outer space, as your lungs slowly (or quickly) turn into a brick and your family pays their final respects to you on Zoom.

I am mildly asthmatic and I know a bit about breathing: COVID-19 is worse. A lot worse.

Perhaps our maskless hiker is thinking, "But I'm young and healthy and I'm not shedding any toxic, virus-laden droplets, so why should I inconvenience myself?" My response is simple: Nobody knows that. Period. Full Stop. Even someone tested last week has no idea whether they were subsequently exposed to this deadly virus and are at risk of infecting others.

Look up the word "asymptomatic" in the dictionary. Did any of those well-documented "super-spreaders" of the virus deliberately set out to infect their fellow churchgoers, family members or teammates? Unlikely.

Yes, it's an imposition, but let's put it in perspective. I grew up hearing stories about World War II and the "impositions" my parents' generation were asked to endure as the war raged: blackouts in London; Victory Gardens in Chicago; ration cards; donations of everything from blood plasma to scrap metal in support of the common effort.

By contrast, wearing a face mask in public doesn't seem like a lot to ask. Hyperbole, you say? There seems to be some misconception that, because we appear to have "flattened the curve," the war against the coronavirus has been won. Sorry to puncture that particular fantasy, but the point of flattening the curve is not to shorten but precisely to extend the length of the pandemic so as not to overwhelm the health care system in its early stages (as happened in New York and Milan).

It's worth recalling, in this regard, that the Spanish flu of 1918 came in waves: The first was relatively mild and many politicians dismissed it as seasonal flu (sound familiar?). With people's defenses down and their immune systems compromised, the second wave struck in September and went on to kill between 50 and 100 million people, depending on who you read and how you count.

It's only May. Barring a miracle (or a presidential decree), this highly infectious virus will be with us for a long time. About a thousand Americans are dying from it every day. The Fake News calls it "an incalculable loss." I agree.

Our pervasive sense of denial is abetted by the sheer unreality of it all: gentle breezes are blowing; melodious birds are singing; fragrant flowers are blooming; the foothills beckon ... and by the time this column is published, 100,000 Americans will have lost their lives and 40 million will have lost their livelihoods.

I finally begin to understand the genius of the Surrealists with their melted clocks and improbable contrasts: Lautréamont's "chance juxtaposition of a sewing machine and an umbrella on a dissecting table" suddenly feels banal and everyday.

So please, reluctant face coverers, spare us the dissecting table (and the autopsy table) and wear the damn mask. It's not that hard, and refusing to do so is anti-social, irresponsible and unethical.

Let's all do it for ourselves, for our neighbors, and for the doctors, nurses, paramedics and ambulance drivers who are, literally, dying to help us out if we, or the stranger who passes us on the hiking trail, gets sick.

Barry Katz is a longtime resident of Palo Alto's Ventura district. He is a long-distance runner, a mild asthmatic and prides himself on being an asymptomatic public nuisance.

** Editor's note: Santa Clara County strongly recommends that people wear masks outside of their home but does not require masks to be worn while engaging in recreational activities. The order states, however: "People are recommended to have a face covering with them and readily accessible when exercising, even if they're not wearing it at that moment."

Find comprehensive coverage on the Midpeninsula's response to the new coronavirus by Palo Alto Online, the Mountain View Voice and the Almanac here.

Comments

TimR
Downtown North
on May 29, 2020 at 7:31 am
TimR, Downtown North
on May 29, 2020 at 7:31 am
23 people like this

Standard practice while out walking, running, or cycling in the OSP's is to put a mask/bandanna up to your face when/if you pass by someone on the trail, if it's a narrow one. That way, breathing isn't really impaired, and infection risk is minimized. On the wider sections of access road in the parks, it's not always necessary, as moving to the side will suffice to create a six-foot distance. Those particularly concerned about the virus step off the trail a bit and turn their back on the passerby (hopefully looking for rattlesnakes first). People on horses, because they're high up I guess, never have masks on. And that works for me.


Science
College Terrace
on May 29, 2020 at 7:44 am
Science, College Terrace
on May 29, 2020 at 7:44 am
46 people like this

Yes, we should wear masks in public, especially indoors. And yes, it's polite to wear bandannas and pull them over your face when hiking. But all of the evidence indicates that it is completely safe to exercise outdoors without wearing a face mask if you maintain distance. We are already living with enough restrictions that we need. Please refrain from advocating for restrictions that aren't backed by any data. And BTW, wearing a mask while exercising is not the law.


Eric Migicovsky
Downtown North
on May 29, 2020 at 7:49 am
Eric Migicovsky, Downtown North
on May 29, 2020 at 7:49 am
48 people like this

Let's keep the discussion science-based. I haven't seen any evidence of viral spreading outdoors, let alone through sub 10 second walk-bys on a trail. Let's focus our attention on actual risks.


TimR
Downtown North
on May 29, 2020 at 8:02 am
TimR, Downtown North
on May 29, 2020 at 8:02 am
29 people like this

Oh, and BTW, it's NOT the law. From yesterday's "Daily Coronavirus Report" email (announcing that Foothills and Baylands parking lots will now be open on Saturdays):

"The City also strongly urges people to wear face coverings while enjoying our open space preserves and outdoor recreation. Still, it is not required, so please do not call in a suspected violation for walking, hiking, or running without a face covering."


JR
Palo Verde
on May 29, 2020 at 8:05 am
JR, Palo Verde
on May 29, 2020 at 8:05 am
28 people like this

It is anti-social, irresponsible and unethical to bully residents into wearing masks outdoors. I will under no circumstances wear a mask when I am out walking, running or biking. [Portion removed.]


the real
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 8:05 am
the real, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 8:05 am
13 people like this

[Post removed.]


Messifan
Ventura
on May 29, 2020 at 8:20 am
Messifan, Ventura
on May 29, 2020 at 8:20 am
27 people like this

I suggest the nervous stay out of places where they may get too close to someone else. And lying about the law is unethical. Comparisons about mask wearing outdoors to what happened in New York and Italy do not bolster your case.


Resident
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 8:26 am
Resident, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 8:26 am
40 people like this

As the author of the comment that supposedly inspired this Guest Opinion, I would like to add a few things.

First, you suppose I am young and healthy. The truth may surprise you. I would never put myself in the young category anymore, sadly, and healthy, well that is subjective since I could be called healthy by some, but not by others. One thing I do is challenge my abilities to prevent age catching up with me. Hiking is one of those activities which is very different when the walks around the flat parts of Palo Alto becomes the norm instead of the challenge of hills at altitude which I would normally be doing on a regular basis.

Second, if you haven't been in Foothill Park recently, you will see that most of the trails are now one way so meeting someone coming in the opposite direction on a narrow trail is not happening, so passing is not an issue. If someone is running and needs to pass someone they catch up, then there are places where they can pass and the slower hiker can move to one side to allow the faster runner to pass, but it may take a few minutes and the faster runner must be patient enough to wait until they reach such a passing place. Manners mean that a runner can slow until such time. On my hikes I meet so few people that this has not been an issue, particularly midweek.

Lastly, a scarf or bandana that can be pulled up when necessary is much more pleasant than a mask that is worn all the time in the vague possibility that an errant droplet from someone who passed along the same trail 10 minutes previously may be breathed in.

We are not talking about the numbers of runners in the Boston Marathon. Instead the occasional domestic groups of hikers in small numbers, separated by acres of open space who may for a minute or two come closer than 25' distances.

Your Guest Opinion written at my expense is very one sided. I am not anti-social, irresponsible or unethical. To suggest otherwise makes you, as you rightly say, a busybody, and sound arrogant, preaching a hurtful message, that hurts rather than nurtures and smacks of intolerance.

Allow those of us who wear our masks whenever it is really necessary in business and crowds, to be able to breathe some fresh air into our lungs when that is really necessary for our mental and physical health, without judgmental Guest Opinions in the local newspaper from someone who has no authority over any other Palo Alto resident.


CrescentParkAnon.
Crescent Park
on May 29, 2020 at 8:31 am
CrescentParkAnon., Crescent Park
on May 29, 2020 at 8:31 am
18 people like this

Wearing a mask is something you basically do for other people. It may help a little to filter stuff that you are breathing in, but masks work a lot betting catching things on the way out. What is the problem to do a minor thing to help people feel safe around you?

Yeah, I agree. Wear a mask. My problem has been getting them. I ordered a package 2 months ago and it has not arrived and says it will be late, and later, and later. Where are they selling masks that are here now?

I don't get people who always have to complain about stuff like this.

If you are walking up a hill and are that our of breath that wearing a mask stops you - you better slow down because you are courting a heart attack. People just have to come up with the most ridiculous excuses.

By the way, what's the latest on the Baylands? Can we go out there or not?

Now, "we" have decided it is a good idea to wear masks, so I am fine with being a good citizen even though I believe it is a bit of overkill outside unless you are within the 6 foot limit, but on a lot of things we give in to convention. Everything I read or view says that the virus spreads fast, but also that it does not stay on surfaces that long and it is not that easy to catch it from a surface. Likewise airborne particles outside do not survive that well, especially if subject to full sunlight. OK, if that is true, then soon enough the convention will be changes. In the meantime ... be cool and wear your mask.


CrescentParkAnon.
Crescent Park
on May 29, 2020 at 8:35 am
CrescentParkAnon., Crescent Park
on May 29, 2020 at 8:35 am
6 people like this

[Post removed.]


S_mom
Community Center
on May 29, 2020 at 8:35 am
S_mom, Community Center
on May 29, 2020 at 8:35 am
34 people like this

Did the weekly actually publish this or is this one of those town square forum posts? How can they let him say that wearing a mask during outdoor recreation is "also the law" without any fact checking? Because, "incidentally," it absolutely is not the law. From the order itself: "Wearing a Face Covering is recommended but not required while engaged in outdoor recreation such as walking, hiking, bicycling, or running."

An op ed arguing that you should wear one anyway is fine. Telling readers it's illegal not to is a falsehood.


Jack
Downtown North
on May 29, 2020 at 8:53 am
Jack, Downtown North
on May 29, 2020 at 8:53 am
9 people like this

[Post removed.]


Samuel L.
Duveneck/St. Francis
on May 29, 2020 at 9:11 am
Samuel L., Duveneck/St. Francis
on May 29, 2020 at 9:11 am
15 people like this

I stopped reading at the "Fake News" comment. Not sure why that was inserted. If you want to bring people together for a cause, it might be a good idea to refrain from splintering them at the same time.


Bogan Kangaroo
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 9:13 am
Bogan Kangaroo, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 9:13 am
20 people like this

Let's be clear: 6 ft is not a magic distance -- the guidance is AT LEAST 6 ft, and if you're puffing and blowing running a trail then you should leave a LOT more room than that if you're passing someone.


Dan
Midtown
on May 29, 2020 at 9:36 am
Dan, Midtown
on May 29, 2020 at 9:36 am
34 people like this

This is not that complicated. If you are terrified of getting the virus even in unlikely situations such as outdoors on hiking trails, you can continue to shelter in place to your hearts content. It is not practical to run with a mask on, and hiking in nature does not require wearing a mask where you might come into contact with people for a few seconds at a time. Sweat does bad things to masks too.


Cynic
Crescent Park
on May 29, 2020 at 9:47 am
Cynic, Crescent Park
on May 29, 2020 at 9:47 am
Like this comment

[Post removed; cannot substantiate claim that WHO no longer recommends use of masks.]


Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 10:39 am
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 10:39 am
Like this comment

Posted by Cynic, a resident of Crescent Park

>> WHO no longer recommends masks:
>> Fox News: WHO guidance: Healthy people should wear masks only when 'taking care of' coronavirus patients.

I looked up the Fox News article and the WHO site. Apples and Oranges. The WHO guidelines, which you can find right here, address the use of surgical masks as PPE to protect yourself-- and, if you are at risk by caring for someone, how to do it right:

Web Link

The CDC guidelines address the question of non-symptomatic members of the public reducing their risk to others: Web Link

For those who are interested, the following journal "article" (actually, a kind of informed op-ed that is part of a dialog specifically about the efficacy of face coverings) may be engaging: onlinelibrary dot wiley dot com doi/10.1111/jep.13415


TimR
Downtown North
on May 29, 2020 at 11:15 am
TimR, Downtown North
on May 29, 2020 at 11:15 am
4 people like this

@CrescentPark

" Where are they selling masks that are here now?"

Hassett Ace Hardware has lots of them, and different kinds/brands, behind the register. What what I saw, they're all the "medical" style ones. But Sliders on University sells cloth ones for $5.


Wyn Wachhorst
Atherton
on May 29, 2020 at 11:19 am
Wyn Wachhorst, Atherton
on May 29, 2020 at 11:19 am
15 people like this

The runner who is worried about infection is definitely the one who should themselves wear a mask. But for others, since you are outdoors and keeping some distance, and add in the fact that the odds of the other runner being infected are probably one in a thousand or more, that small risk is probably one worth taking. That said, it remains true that a heavy runner ejects particles that will diffuse in the air in many directions for many minutes. My point is that it's a matter of risk analysis that many can understandably see as worth taking. But to deny that the risk is real would show a lack of analytical capacity--the kind of emotional hijacking of rational objectivity that energizes both extremities of the political spectrum.


Dan
Professorville
on May 29, 2020 at 11:47 am
Dan, Professorville
on May 29, 2020 at 11:47 am
17 people like this

Today it is being widely reported that San Francisco just issued a new regulation that will require everyone to wear masks at almost all times, even when outside, if you are within 30 feet of another person. Web Link

As with many of the prior commenters, I have been unable to find any published science that supports this policy. I personally am happy to wear a mask inside as the science does support this. I think I would also wear a mask if I was walking around on the sidewalks of Manhattan. But most of what I have read indicates it’s pretty rare to transmit COVID outside in the context of outdoor recreation. Web Link

My fear is that the Palo Alto City Council along with the other more liberal cities like Oakland will now copy the San Francisco policy.

I would appreciate it if the author of this article would provide references to scientific research that supports his admonitions. Or if he has reviewed no such research then please let us know...

Thank you to the editors of weekly for being willing to correct the original article.


Gnar
Charleston Gardens
on May 29, 2020 at 11:48 am
Gnar, Charleston Gardens
on May 29, 2020 at 11:48 am
8 people like this

Evidence consistently indicates that infection occurs:
1. When you spend 15-30 minutes in an enclosed space with someone who is actively aerosolizing. Think car ride. This is why we wear masks in public buildings.
2. When you touch an infected surface, then touch your face. This is why we wash our hands frequently.

It's excessive to demand that everyone wear a mask outside when it's possible to maintain 6-10ft physical distance. For when you pass someone, pull that mask out and put it on. Done.


Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 11:55 am
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 11:55 am
4 people like this

Posted by Dan, a resident of Professorville

>> Today it is being widely reported that San Francisco just issued a new regulation that will require everyone to wear masks at almost all times, even when outside, if you are within 30 feet of another person.

Dan, I appreciate what you are saying. It is actually a pretty complex question. I'm not saying that the author of the following article would agree with "30 feet", but, the author does explain pretty well why certain kinds of policies make rational sense right now, even though we are without the kind of statistically robust proof that will take months and years.

Web Link


S_mom
Community Center
on May 29, 2020 at 11:55 am
S_mom, Community Center
on May 29, 2020 at 11:55 am
5 people like this

PA Weekly, you missed another reference to it being against the law. Last sentence of this paragraph:

So please, reluctant face coverers, spare us the dissecting table (and the autopsy table) and wear the damn mask. It's not that hard, and refusing to do so is anti-social, irresponsible and unethical. And incidentally, it's also the law.


Jennifer
another community
on May 29, 2020 at 12:14 pm
Jennifer, another community
on May 29, 2020 at 12:14 pm
6 people like this

Be a mature adult, and grant others the same courtesy.


Bart Anderson
Mayfield
on May 29, 2020 at 12:26 pm
Bart Anderson, Mayfield
on May 29, 2020 at 12:26 pm
7 people like this

It's not easy to figure this stuff out. Vox has a great video explaining how to minimize your risk of exposure to coronavirus. Bottom line: it's a combination of
- distance
- duration
- ventilation (air flow)
- masks.
Another takeaway is that being outdoors is really really good. Since coronavirus may be with us for several yeaars, I'm going to make a habit of doing things outdoors.
Web Link


Me 2
Old Palo Alto
on May 29, 2020 at 12:27 pm
Me 2, Old Palo Alto
on May 29, 2020 at 12:27 pm
6 people like this

"As with many of the prior commenters, I have been unable to find any published science that supports this policy."

I also have been unable to find any published science that *doesn't* support this policy as well.

So there.


Dan
Professorville
on May 29, 2020 at 12:57 pm
Dan, Professorville
on May 29, 2020 at 12:57 pm
5 people like this

Hi @Me 2

In my posting above, I included a web link to a widely cited research study that would appear to provide data that would not support a policy of requiring wearing masks outdoors when exercising. Here it is again for your convenience. Web Link

I'm happy to respond if you want to read it and have a serious discussion.


bchill
another community
on May 29, 2020 at 1:11 pm
bchill, another community
on May 29, 2020 at 1:11 pm
1 person likes this

[Post removed.]


Thank You
Duveneck/St. Francis
on May 29, 2020 at 1:19 pm
Thank You, Duveneck/St. Francis
on May 29, 2020 at 1:19 pm
18 people like this

I am surprised that some folks still are not respecting social distancing. On our walk in our neighborhood last night I had one middle schooler run right by us and another college student coming back from tennis walk right by us a couple of feet away both without masks. Lots of folks in Palo Alto still not wearing masks and and walking about 6 feet away. Japan, Korea and Singapore have done much better because everyone wears masks. If both parties are wearing a mask the transmission rate is dramatically reduced. But the key that the asymptomatic transmitter wear the mask. This is the real problem in Palo Alto because folks either assume they are not sick or don't care since if they are sick its the other person that that gets infected as a result. Dr. Fauci hit the nail on the head when he said wearing a mask is a courtesy to others: Web Link


M
Midtown
on May 29, 2020 at 1:28 pm
M, Midtown
on May 29, 2020 at 1:28 pm
20 people like this

Totally agree with the article! People who refuse to wear masks don’t consider anyone but themselves. They don’t think about others. You can be asimptomaric and don’t even know that you can get others sick. It’s not that hard to put mask when you meet people and it’s not forever (hopefully) it’s just during pandemic. Don’t put others at risk! Think about people around! They have their elderly parents or immunocompromised person at home. They might die because of you, who just don’t want to make a little effort.


What Will They Do Next
Old Palo Alto
on May 29, 2020 at 1:31 pm
What Will They Do Next, Old Palo Alto
on May 29, 2020 at 1:31 pm
4 people like this

I stopped reading at presidential decree and fake news. They are totally irrelevant to the topic, completely unnecessary and even though you may think so, not funny.


Me 2
Old Palo Alto
on May 29, 2020 at 1:58 pm
Me 2, Old Palo Alto
on May 29, 2020 at 1:58 pm
5 people like this

"In my posting above, I included a web link to a widely cited research study that would appear to provide data that would not support a policy of requiring wearing masks outdoors when exercising. Here it is again for your convenience."

One study? That hasn't been peer reviewed?

That hardly qualifies as scientific proof. People gave Dr. Ioannidis a lot of crap for the first version of his yet-to-be-peer reviewed study. You can't cherry pick and choose what non-peer reviewed study you use as "scientific proof."

"I'm happy to respond if you want to read it and have a serious discussion."

This is the Internet. Who really thinks people change their minds based on what they read on the web?

So no, not really. Poking holes in posts is much more fun!


This
Palo Alto High School
on May 29, 2020 at 2:11 pm
This, Palo Alto High School
on May 29, 2020 at 2:11 pm
23 people like this

Everyone should wear a mask in stores. But walking on the sidewalk around the block when no one is around? No.


Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 2:45 pm
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 2:45 pm
8 people like this

@Dan; @This

One may accept this (from the citation): "sharing indoor space is a major SARS-CoV-2 infection risk" (perhaps even "*the* major risk) and still think that wearing a mask outdoors is a good idea when people are close (a crowded sidewalk or other unavoidable crowd), or on a trail following someone walking or running, or, passing closely. Sharing (some) air.

Although we all know all about focusing on the biggest risks ("low-hanging fruit" etc.), it makes sense to reduce several smaller risks as well. The reasoning is explained in the article Web Link starting with the section "In relation to a community‐wide intervention such as face coverings," The goal is to reduce R0 to less than one. At the individual level, one is wearing a mask at times to "protect others in the community". At the moment, we don't have statistically robust evidence of what lesser measures are effective, but, we hope, some combination of behaviors such as wearing face coverings when near other people, will add up to be effective in getting R0 below 1.0. Please remember that it is about reducing the probability that, if you have COVID-19 but are (at the moment) asymptomatic, *you* are unlikely to transmit it to others. Even though, since you feel fine, "of course" you aren't sick.

You are wearing the mask to protect others in the community, even though you are not sick.


Dan
Professorville
on May 29, 2020 at 3:25 pm
Dan, Professorville
on May 29, 2020 at 3:25 pm
5 people like this

Hi Anon,

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I think that the root of this discussion lies in the levels of risk and harm we are individually and collectively willing to tolerate Vis a Vis measures to mitigate the spread of COVID.

A probably bad analogy is driving. Driving at 65 on the freeway is clearly dangerous. If I crashed going 65, I can kill both myself pretty easily, plus you if I crash into you. If we set the speed limit at 10 mph it would be a lot safer for us both. But we don’t do this because we all understand the risk reward equation for driving in roughly the same way.

We don’t yet have that same shared knowledge for COVID transmission and masks. My Personal opinion is some people are overly cavalier about it, and others are overly cautious.

My concern is when governments make binding policies based on fear or emotion or following the herd and without data or science. We already have many examples in the current outbreak of both government policies that have helped, and those that have not.

Here is the current world health organization guidance on face masks... Web Link

Wouldn’t it be great if the WHO guidance and the CDC guidance and our local laws And practices all lined up? I sure hope they do soon...


Bogan Kangaroo
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 3:53 pm
Bogan Kangaroo, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 3:53 pm
2 people like this

@Gnar, and probably a few others: Regarding taking your mask on and off as you pass people -- Just don't do it. Unless you can avoid touching the surface of the mask, holding only the ties, every time you touch the mask you're risking transferring anything on the mask to your hands and subsequently to anything else you touch (such as your face, when you go to put the mask back on...) Put the mask on when it's appropriate, leave it on until there's no chance of needing it again (e.g., when you get to your car, or home, or...) If you really think you want to put them on and take them off... take multiple clean masks with you, bag the dirty ones when you take them off, sanitize your hands before touching anything else.


David
Los Altos
on May 29, 2020 at 5:54 pm
David, Los Altos
on May 29, 2020 at 5:54 pm
11 people like this

But the thing is there is a 1 in 40,000 chance of encountering someone with the virus. If you put a mask on you are doing it to make other people feel better. You're not going to get anything on your hands from taking it off in such a situation. There's really nothing on the mask. It's different if you are around a lot of people with the virus. In this case, if you get something on your hands, which is highly unlikely, you'll wash your hands and get rid of it anyway.


resident
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 7:03 pm
resident, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 29, 2020 at 7:03 pm
8 people like this

fyi - San Francisco now requires masks when you are walking outdoors within 30 feet of any other people. Web Link


Alvin
Professorville
on May 29, 2020 at 8:08 pm
Alvin, Professorville
on May 29, 2020 at 8:08 pm
12 people like this

Telling an outdoor person to wear a mask while running uphill, why? So he can reduce the amount of oxygen being breathed back into his body and bloodstream and take in more of his exhaled CO2? [Portion removed.]


VALLCO JEANNE
another community
on May 29, 2020 at 8:12 pm
VALLCO JEANNE, another community
on May 29, 2020 at 8:12 pm
6 people like this

It took so little time for us to collectively lose our minds. This situation is not at all what it seems. But the rips right through the heart of our social fabric and way of life are real as anything.


Me 2
Old Palo Alto
on May 29, 2020 at 8:53 pm
Me 2, Old Palo Alto
on May 29, 2020 at 8:53 pm
4 people like this

"Telling an outdoor person to wear a mask while running uphill, why? So he can reduce the amount of oxygen being breathed back into his body and bloodstream and take in more of his exhaled CO2? Are you insane? "

Actually it trains the body to be more efficient with oxygen intake. That's why the Denver Broncos are at an advantage playing at home at Mile High.

"Listen, Mr. Bossypants, what the hell do you care if someone else is wearing a mask or not? You're "protected" if you're wearing a mask, so stop being a mask fascist. "

I'm not the same Bossypants, but no, a mask doesn't protect you from others. You are protect others from *you*.


Jimmy
Fairmeadow
on May 29, 2020 at 9:09 pm
Jimmy, Fairmeadow
on May 29, 2020 at 9:09 pm
17 people like this

Santa Clara County law says you don't have to wear a mask outside. So when I'm outside I will not be wearing a mask. If you're afraid of people who are not wearing masks stay inside have your food delivered but, don't try to guilt me or anybody else into wearing a mask because of your fears. I personally will be doing what I want when I want within the limits of the law. As I went out tonight on a little stroll I noticed about 75% of the Palo Alto residents had no masks and were enjoying themselves peacefully. Good luck with your guilt trips they don't work here.


JL
Mountain View
on May 29, 2020 at 10:03 pm
JL, Mountain View
on May 29, 2020 at 10:03 pm
19 people like this

You are not being asked to donate a f@#+ing kidney. It's a simple and easy-to-comply-with measure to help protect your neighbors and loved ones, for goodness sake. Come on.


Wow, take a deep breath
Palo Verde
on May 30, 2020 at 1:25 am
Wow, take a deep breath , Palo Verde
on May 30, 2020 at 1:25 am
12 people like this

Fascinating to see how all the fear mongering from the media has affected everyone. There’s clearly a challenge nowadays to think logically and rationally if wearing masks has become such an emotionally charged issue.

Thankfully, this article is just an opinion because it’s misinformation like this that has caused so much confusion these last few months. It’s too bad there isn’t any accountability for poor journalism these days.

For those of you judging others not wearing masks, just stay inside your house and you’ll be safe. That being said, the data so far has been very clear that the outdoors is one of the LOWEST risk environments.

Has it occurred to you that one of the places where the virus should spread like wild fire is the airport and yet, besides a couple of cases, there is no record of airport employees getting sick on a regular basis?

You’ve been led to believe that everyone is in grave danger because it serves a greater political/monetary agenda. But the data doesn’t indicate that the risk is nearly as high as you’re implying.

I’m not trying to downplay the seriousness of this pandemic but the groups that are at the greatest risk are very distinct. The elderly and immuno-compromised are the primary groups that need to wear masks. Everyone else should wear one out of respect for those at risk when they are indoors but it is not necessary outdoors.


Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 30, 2020 at 8:15 am
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 30, 2020 at 8:15 am
6 people like this

Posted by Alvin, a resident of Professorville

>> Listen, Mr. Bossypants, what the hell do you care if someone else is wearing a mask or not? You're "protected" if you're wearing a mask, so stop being a mask fascist.

It is difficult to tell when someone is knowingly writing something like the above, or, if they actually don't understand. Apologies to all for being repetitive:

You are wearing the mask to protect others in the community, even though you are not sick.


Me 2
Old Palo Alto
on May 30, 2020 at 9:25 am
Me 2, Old Palo Alto
on May 30, 2020 at 9:25 am
7 people like this

"You are wearing the mask to protect others in the community, even though you are not sick."

Or think you're not sick and could be asymptomatic or presymptomatic.


Carter Keller
Atherton
on May 30, 2020 at 9:54 am
Carter Keller, Atherton
on May 30, 2020 at 9:54 am
7 people like this

Here is a peer reviewed scientific article in the most well respected journal that argues for masks in and outdoors. The 6ft rule was from the 1930s before they could study small droplets. Basically if you are standing close enough to smell someone’s cigarette smoke you are being exposed.
Web Link


Concerned
Old Palo Alto
on May 30, 2020 at 10:17 am
Concerned, Old Palo Alto
on May 30, 2020 at 10:17 am
10 people like this

The latest peer-reviewed research, by atmospheric chemist Kimberly Prather and three colleagues, says we should all be wearing masks to protect each other from COVID-19 based on an overview of the current evidence for airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2. (Web Link)


in the spirit
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 30, 2020 at 10:39 am
in the spirit, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 30, 2020 at 10:39 am
2 people like this

Two weeks ago if I was wandering around town without a mask and decided to go into a store or ride the bus, I was out of luck. But now it's easy to find a discarded mask in the parking lot or in the trash.


Ares
Community Center
on May 30, 2020 at 11:06 am
Ares, Community Center
on May 30, 2020 at 11:06 am
Like this comment

Wow,

“For those of you judging others not wearing masks, just stay inside your house and you’ll be safe. That being said, the data so far has been very clear that the outdoors is one of the LOWEST risk environments. “

I agree - the easiest thing to do is to wear your own mask. If people run by you and you have a mask on, what are you worried about? And let others worry about protecting themselves.


Messifan
Ventura
on May 30, 2020 at 12:20 pm
Messifan, Ventura
on May 30, 2020 at 12:20 pm
5 people like this

Let's not forget that measured positives cases in Palo Alto are increasing at the rate of 1 or 2 per week. We are at 78 cases but we were at 62 like two months ago. I realize that some people are asymptomatic and therefore not being tested, and that some are choosing not to get tested or don't have the means to get tested, but it is clear there is basically no disease in the community. I think we can relax on outdoor masks. What we are doing has worked fine.

I assume that the very few cases are in long term facilities, but there is no way of knowing. Public health officials should be sharing who is being infected and how instead of the community having to guess. I realize they have more control keeping us in the dark and letting busybodies do their shaming work.


Walker
Menlo Park
on May 30, 2020 at 12:24 pm
Walker, Menlo Park
on May 30, 2020 at 12:24 pm
9 people like this

Masks are not required outside away from businesses, which makes the 6 foot rule so important to follow. There are so many telling the vulnerable to take extra precautions. How about EVERYONE being considerate? I'm one of the ones out there making a big effort so I don't infect others or visa versa. So many walk down the sidewalk with their heads down, expecting everyone else to go around them. Then there the ones who decide to stop in the middle of sidewalk to use their phones or just to have a conversation. People passing have to go around in the street. This pandemic has made me see how thoughtless and uncaring most people are.

When people step aside for me before I have a chance to step aside for them I always wave, smile, nod my head, or say "thank you." The same doesn't happen when I step out of their way. Most have their heads down or look ahead emotionless. It's like being in a town of zombies. Will it hurt everyone to be friendly? It would make us feel more connected and less alone. Give it a try.



bchill
another community
on May 30, 2020 at 1:52 pm
bchill, another community
on May 30, 2020 at 1:52 pm
10 people like this

Is it Dr. Katz?

I have to assume from the article that it is, since you profess such expertise on covid safety.

Stay home, Barry, and you won't get covid.


Chill
Los Altos
on May 30, 2020 at 2:05 pm
Chill, Los Altos
on May 30, 2020 at 2:05 pm
13 people like this

People don't understand probabilities and can't assess risks. Citing scientific research is no use of you don't go into the details and only read interpretation by the reporters.

There is difference in what outdoors mean. I can be at an outdoor concert, outdoor street festival, outdoor walking in the street, outdoor watching birds in the wilderness, outdoor in a park, outdoor on a hiking trail. The scientific research in most cases doesn't differentiate what indoor and outdoor is in terms of the density of the people. Walking in a crowded street is very different than walking on a hiking trail.

I regularly go for a long walk at shoreline and other places. Two weeks back almost everyone was wearing a mask. Yesterday the ratio was reversed.

The chances of you getting infected depends on the viral load you are exposed. It also depends on the time you are exposed to the viral load. Assuming you are unlikely to touch any surface while hiking in open spaces your high chance of catching an infection is through the droplets exhaled by a person who is shedding the virus. Unless the person is sneezing or coughing directly at you and either the distance is not enough or the wind can carry those droplets to land on your face, it is highly unlikely that you will get exposed to enough viral load.

If the person is breathing normally, and passes you by, the viral load is very small and time for which you share the airspace is miniscule. There are not enough droplets in the air for you to catch infection.

The chances of you catching an infection in open air on a hike where some crosses your path occasionally is lower than your chance of dying in a car accident.

Another statistics that lowers the probability further is rate of infection among the population in the area. Most of the bay area has statistically far lower rate of infection. If we take consensus measure appriximately 2% of the population has been exposed to the virus. 35% remain asymptomatic. Therefore out of 1000 people on the walking trail passing you by, there might be 7 or 8 who are asymptomatic.

If you are wearing a mask, it could protect you further in the outdoors from these 7 or 8 people if you were near them standing still for 50 minutes. Without either of you wearing a mask and standing at a distance of a six or three feet from the asymptomatic person who is breathing in open air your for 50 minutes, your chances of getting enough viral load to catch infection is less than getting hit by lightening.

The infection mortality rate is little over or under 1%. Most studies are placing it at 0.6% to 0.26%. The obesity has high correlation to the COVID mortality. 50% or morr of the mortality has occured in nursing homes.

Taken together others not wearing a mask in large outdoors while hiking, is highly unlikely to infect you.

Please stop the hysteria and try to look at the facts and how to assess risk and probability. Your chances of catching infection is many times higher when wearing masks indoors at Costco, Wholefoodso or Safeway than being on a hiking trail without mask. Your chances of catching infection is higher from someone delivering your groceries to your home than when you will be walking outdoors in a park.


Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 30, 2020 at 4:16 pm
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 30, 2020 at 4:16 pm
5 people like this

Posted by Ares, a resident of Community Center

>> I agree - the easiest thing to do is to wear your own mask. If people run by you and you have a mask on, what are you worried about? And let others worry about protecting themselves.

Ares, the purpose of wearing a cloth face covering outdoors (in some circumstances) is to protect others from you. Yes, under certain circumstances, it could protect you as well, but, that isn't the primary purpose. The purpose face coverings is as a community‐wide intervention to reduce R0 to less than one.

Think of face coverings as analogous to a vaccination program that is only partially effective, but, effective enough to reduce R0 to less than one.

Another missing piece here is that some of the comments seem to imply well people don't need to worry about face coverings. That misses the very important information that COVID-19 can become infectious well in advance of the infected person becoming aware of it or feeling. In Korea, where contact tracing is more advanced/effective than in the US, one patient, "Patient 31", initiated a large jump in the initially small number of cases. Another later patient infected ~79 other people. These superspreaders found out after the fact that they were already highly infectious without feeling "sick". This is not unique to COVID-19, BTW. The phenomenon exists with SARS, Ebola, and even measles.

Bottom line: simple cloth facial coverings are part of the community-wide intervention.

To protect yourself in a more hazardous situation (e.g. caring for someone with Covid-19), read the WHO guidelines.


Mark Weiss
Downtown North
on May 30, 2020 at 5:21 pm
Mark Weiss, Downtown North
on May 30, 2020 at 5:21 pm
2 people like this

Kudos to anyone who tries to reference the classics, Oedipus. Don't get the reference but the search injuns inform me that it's a trope, if not a meme. "Sit on it, Potsie" is a meme - - I used it on a troll in a separate, though contemporaneous thread. I recommend "Josepth Campbell" here with a thousand faces. Also, the trendy cable show about blacks in our society having their Wall Street bombed in Ohio and the all the cops and Don Johnson in present day wearing masks, though some have Rorasch desigs on them, and also the Smile and Frown masks which are dramatic in an ironic sense and also now and emoji - you can suss up their actual names, Boots and Sugie or something, Steeped and Fetid, Loots and Shoots, Lott and Young, whatever. I mean the top fiiction writers could not makes this shit up. Also, I wonder and I would wager vouchswear that Dr Katz is related to Sandy Katz who quarterbacked one of the few Gunn teams, circa 1970, to a championship, that is to say I am guessing he is a long-time homey. Or homeopath. I also recently heard from Joel Katz, same class, as Sandy and Akira and we recollected that Gunn in 1979 had a CCS champ in long jump, Lola Rockwell but that I only remembered the third place finish of Jeff "Wolfman" Stuart and was that because I am a racist and a sexist - -I'm definitely "racy" and "sexy" and I can only say that, as, like Oedipus, I have lost my testosterone and found my true self and I note that Dr Katz -- like Dr J, not actually a doctor but certainly qualifed to play one in the media -- is also that age. I'm relatively "sexy" and "racy" and indeed, maybe am less so than I was in 1979.
The reason I brought it up is that I recall seeing Wolfman at a kegger at Foothill Park, so it is realtively on point. Parks, Paths, leaps to conclusion. Rockwell's record was later broken by Ken Margerum's kid - I wonder if he wears a mask? Doubtful. Windsurfers don't need masks. Wolfman's sister in law, fittingly, runs the Emergency Department here at Stanford, so some of us might be meeting her soon enough. (So my little track digression fits in two ways, mark me).

So if you cannot like Icarus fly close to the son or like Oedipus kill your father and fuck your mother, you can be incredibly vain and arrogant and show us your incredibly good lucking mug and shun the mask. Bonfire of the Vanities. Your so vain, you probably think this post is about you.
I am the guy pictured on the cover of the Weekly walking my dog, and my wife, across Uni Ave WEARING A MASK.

PS I am not a lawyer ok wait I am a lawyer and you can fill out a POLST saying that if you get COVID-19 and are hospitalized you chose not to be intubated and you can spare the scarce ventilator for someone who likely WORE HIS OR HER MASK.


Mark Weiss
Downtown North
on May 30, 2020 at 5:23 pm
Mark Weiss, Downtown North
on May 30, 2020 at 5:23 pm
Like this comment

[Post removed.]


Mark Weiss
Downtown North
on May 30, 2020 at 5:29 pm
Mark Weiss, Downtown North
on May 30, 2020 at 5:29 pm
Like this comment

Joel Koch, rather, son of Harvey. Coached Gunn track in 1979


Relax!
Palo Alto Hills
on May 30, 2020 at 5:31 pm
Relax!, Palo Alto Hills
on May 30, 2020 at 5:31 pm
6 people like this

Goosfraba! Just freaking relax! Stop the media drivin anxiety nonsense and get on with your lives!


Mark Weiss
Downtown North
on May 30, 2020 at 5:47 pm
Mark Weiss, Downtown North
on May 30, 2020 at 5:47 pm
Like this comment

I'm just not intuit.


Logic
Woodland Ave. area (East Palo Alto)
on May 31, 2020 at 1:58 am
Logic, Woodland Ave. area (East Palo Alto)
on May 31, 2020 at 1:58 am
1 person likes this

A person running IS NOT SICK. They are RUNNING.
Better to pass a runner, biker, hiker or the like than anyone else.
We need to stop the paranoia and get back to work.


Paul fisher
Adobe-Meadow
on May 31, 2020 at 2:25 am
Paul fisher, Adobe-Meadow
on May 31, 2020 at 2:25 am
8 people like this

The wearing of mask is a good illustration of how selfish our society really is. Wearing a mask is something that is done in an attempt to offer some protection one takes to not contaminate others. This is a practice in Japan for the seasonal flu, and it is a manner of showing respect toward others health well being. Naturally in Palo Alto, this is to much to ask for, inconvenience...


Walker
Menlo Park
on May 31, 2020 at 11:03 am
Walker, Menlo Park
on May 31, 2020 at 11:03 am
5 people like this

Logic: COVID-19 can be symptomless for up to two weeks, which is why the 6 feet/mask rule is required for all. And don't think that athletes don't exercise when they don't feel well. I often walk/run when under the weather. My stepfather believed he could sweat out impurities so he'd hop on his bike when he wasn't feeling well. So if an otherwise healthy, athletic person has the virus with less severe than symptoms than an immune compromised person, he/she may still be outside exercising. Even healthy people are potential carriers and need to exercise caution to protect others. Remember that the mask/6 feet rule is so we don't infect others. Unless we're tested everyday we don't know if we are carriers, and we don't know if the person who just coughed/breathed on us is a carrier.


Resident
Community Center
on May 31, 2020 at 12:15 pm
Resident , Community Center
on May 31, 2020 at 12:15 pm
5 people like this

I just spoke with a friend who lost her mother and another close relative to COVID in Europe. Her loss reinforced that this remains a life and death threat. Also, the long term health impacts on survivors appear to be much more severe than initially understood.
Posters are correct that studies show that the risk of transmission outdoors is far lower than in contained spaces, but there is still risk from outdoor exposure and we don’t yet really know the boundaries of that risk.
Mask wearing in public, especially within 10 feet of others, is a reasonable and not very inconvenient precaution and it’s something that will make more of the public comfortable with being out in public and bringing back some form of economic normalcy.


Los Altos Joe
Los Altos
on May 31, 2020 at 12:46 pm
Los Altos Joe, Los Altos
on May 31, 2020 at 12:46 pm
4 people like this

For those who claim wearing a mask is a restriction of their rights, just replace the work "mask" with "clothes" and see where the logic takes you. It protects us from you, who could be infectious and not know it. Inconvenient? Sure, but it's the responsible thing to do. Sacrifice a little for the health of all of us.


Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 31, 2020 at 1:50 pm
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on May 31, 2020 at 1:50 pm
4 people like this


>> A person running IS NOT SICK. They are RUNNING.

"Logic" asserts that (RUNNING) => NOT (SICK)

"Logic" apparently believes that this is obvious, but, has not responded to the medical data posted demonstrating that this premise is (extremely) false. Therefore, I must conclude that "Logic" is not very *logical*.


Jetman
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jun 1, 2020 at 12:33 am
Jetman, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jun 1, 2020 at 12:33 am
10 people like this

Wow,

More than a couple of cases at the airport:

"TSA officers required to wear masks, as over 500 test positive”
ABC News ~ May 7, 2020 Web Link

“100 American Airlines flight attendants, 41 pilots test positive”
USA Today ~ April 9, 2020 Web Link

“SFO aware of 39 employees at SFO testing positive for COVID-19”
SFO Connect ~ May 29, 2020 Web Link


Barry Mckokiner
College Terrace
on Jun 1, 2020 at 10:01 am
Barry Mckokiner, College Terrace
on Jun 1, 2020 at 10:01 am
3 people like this

Let us not forget that wearing a mask outside, in Santa Clara Co. is still optional under the law. If you want to wear a mask, please do. If you opt not to don't. It's that simple.


I.B.Me. - U.Be.Who
Downtown North
on Jun 1, 2020 at 8:03 pm
I.B.Me. - U.Be.Who, Downtown North
on Jun 1, 2020 at 8:03 pm
Like this comment

And then there’s the non-masked man who hassled me, a female walking alone in open space, for wearing a mask. I’m certain he would never have said anything were it a man he walked past. Big, strong man creeping on a woman alone. Coward. Just another man bothering women, trying to compensate for something - anything to get our attention and feel powerful for a moment.
Also certain one of the posters on this thread must be same guy; the self-righteous tone purely resonates.

Who asked your opinion about what I do?


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