Condo owners upset as board approves their new neighbor: A five-story hotel | News | Palo Alto Online |

News

Condo owners upset as board approves their new neighbor: A five-story hotel

Resident: 'We don't want to live in Manhattan.'

Despite heavy pushback from nearby residents, a proposal for a five-story hotel on the southern edge of Palo Alto scored a significant victory on Thursday, when the Architectural Review Board threw its support behind the contentious project.

The development calls for a 97-room hotel called Analog, which would be located at 4256 El Camino Real, the former site of Su Hong Eatery near the Palo Alto Redwoods condominium complex. The project has been going through the city's planning process for more than two years and has been subject to three reviews by the Architectural Review Board, which voted 4-1, with board member Osma Thompson dissenting, to support the project.

The board's vote of support means that, barring a successful appeal, the project can now move ahead.

Much like at previous hearings, the board heard on Thursday from dozens of residents of Palo Alto Redwoods, a 117-unit condominium development located near the back of the proposed hotel. Sharlene Carlson, president of the Palo Alto Redwoods Homeowners Association, submitted letters from more than 120 residents of the 117-unit condominium community, raising a long list of objections pertaining to the building's height, massing and parking and traffic impacts.

The design team has already made various significant revisions to the hotel's design, turning what was once an orange building with silver paneling into a brown one, with dark trimming. The hotel's interior courtyard, once envisioned as a site garden, is now slated to be a bar.

Randy Popp, the project applicant, pointed to the list of changes that have been made since the board last saw the application a year ago. The new design has dimmer colors, additional balconies and a reduction of guest rooms from 100 to 97.

"We worked hard over the last few years to adjust building massing and be responsible to neighbors," Popp said. "At this point, we believe we have reached the best balance that can be achieved."

Residents didn't see it that way.

"We have gone from Zen to bar, from meditation to libation, from bad to worse, in our opinion," Carlson said. "The developer has tried to make it as massive as possible on a small parcel and Palo Alto Redwoods objects to this massiveness."

Peter Mills, a board member of the Palo Alto Redwoods Homeowners Association, complained about the "privacy invasion" from the hotel, which he said would be "extreme and unfair."

Mills said the design of the building will require 56 windows from Palo Alto Redwoods to face "an expanse" of 70 windows, a layout that he said will make the area look like Manhattan buildings.

"We don't want to live in Manhattan," Mills said.

Josephine Schuster complained about the light impacts of the new building.

"I don't want to live out my last days in a dark, gloomy place," said Josephine Schuster, 89. "I live on the fourth floor and I will be impacted. I can't imagine how the three floors below me will feel, having no light and no air."

Neil Murphy complained that the new hotel will have significant traffic and parking impacts, with inadequate accommodation for rideshare services and insufficient parking for staff. These problems, he said, are symptoms of the project's "bad design."

"Clearly this is the antithesis of enhancing living conditions in the adjacent residential area," Murphy said.

The board had its own concerns about some of these items. Members generally agreed that the prior iteration of the building design did a better job than the current one in breaking up the massing in the back of the building. Thompson suggested that she would be unlikely to support the project, barring a "considerable redesign."

Her colleagues, however, felt that the new design is worthy of support. Chairman Peter Baltay argued that the hotel is consistent with the city's vision for south El Camino Real.

"It does a good job balancing between a residential facility in the back of the building and our desire to create a 'grand boulevard' in the front, on El Camino Real," Baltay said.

While some residents said they were concerned about the building overshadowing their complex and infringing on their privacy, Baltay pointed to an analysis commissioned by the city indicating that the building would not cast shadows on the Palo Alto Redwoods courtyard after 10:30 a.m. (11 a.m. during winter hours).

Both Baltay and Architectural Review Board member David Hirsch say they prefer the prior design in the back of the building, with massing more broken up. The board's approval included a condition that the design team reverts to that design, even if that means losing one or more rooms. A board subcommittee will work with the applicant to ensure the design is modified accordingly before the final approval is issued.

"I'd hope the community would recognize that if this is done well enough, with care about material and colors, that this is kind of an improvement over a big asphalt field in front of the one-story building ... It's not such a negative, really," Hirsch said.

The board's recommendation paves the way for Planning Director Jonathan Lait to give the project the final approval. Because the project is compliant with the site's commercial zoning, it does not need to go in front of the Planning and Transportation Commission or the City Council, though the council may get to weigh in on the development if residents appeal Lait's approval.

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Comments

40 people like this
Posted by Marion
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 16, 2020 at 5:42 pm

I thought PA didn’t want buildings over 4 stories? Money talks.


26 people like this
Posted by musical
a resident of Palo Verde
on Jan 16, 2020 at 6:04 pm

Sunrise at 10:30 a.m.? Like winter living in Fairbanks.


57 people like this
Posted by Hmmm
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 16, 2020 at 6:14 pm

“Chairman Peter Baltay argued that the hotel is consistent with the city's vision for south El Camino Real.”

Ummm, the City’s vision is to entrench the hotel monoculture? We need housing, we need urban green space, we need civic amenities. We do not need more hotels. We should secede south of Oregon and take all these hotels with us.


25 people like this
Posted by m2grs
a resident of Midtown
on Jan 16, 2020 at 7:57 pm

@Hmmm, bottom line is that the city wants revenue.

By my estimation, if average around $200 per night, 14% tax rate, this little hotel can generate $900K per year for the city. Money talks.


12 people like this
Posted by Palo Alto Architect
a resident of Downtown North
on Jan 16, 2020 at 11:36 pm

@Marion, the height limit is 50 feet, not necessarily 4 stories.


24 people like this
Posted by mauricio
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 17, 2020 at 5:52 am

Palo Alto is becoming Manhattan. In 20 years no one would be able to tell the difference. The option of living in suburbia is rapidly being eliminated.


22 people like this
Posted by BobH
a resident of Palo Verde
on Jan 17, 2020 at 10:21 am

Really?

"We don't want to live in Manhattan" and "Palo Alto is becoming Manhattan".

This is nothing like Manhattan. Here is a picture of Manhattan:

Web Link

Bob


34 people like this
Posted by Online Name
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 17, 2020 at 10:39 am

Instead of another hotel to feed our insatiable free-spending bureaucracy and its gravy train of consultants, just make this housing with half affordable and BMR.


14 people like this
Posted by Manhattan Kansas
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 17, 2020 at 10:47 am

Maurucio--LOL. Maybe Manhattan, Kansas. Have you ever been to Manhattan? No comparison, but makes a nice deflection for the anti housing crowd


32 people like this
Posted by Anon
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 17, 2020 at 11:38 am

PaloAlto needs another hotel - amazing. No money to talk for low income housing - lots of $$$$ for market rate condos - with token low to mid income (parking not included)

Next time we have to vote for people on the city council or State gov't - think very carefully about the vote you cast


16 people like this
Posted by Judith Wasserman
a resident of Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Jan 17, 2020 at 11:51 am

1. Manhattan: symphony orchestra, art museums, opera, ballet, bookstores ... this is not Manhattan and never will be.

2. Hotel vs housing: I would like to see housing as much as anyone, but no housing has been proposed for that site. You can't approve a project that doesn't exist. If a hotel is legally zoned for that lot and meets code, there is no basis for denial. How about we all chip in and buy property and build housing on it? Remember, money talks.


25 people like this
Posted by Online Name
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 17, 2020 at 12:49 pm

Judith Wasserman, then maybe our "pro-housing" "leaders" should start requiring the hotels to provide X number of housing units instead of working so tirelessly on evicting tenants from the President Hotel to bring in yet another hotel which is usually under-parked and then making it a priority to "develop" downtown.


27 people like this
Posted by Tired of corruption
a resident of Charleston Meadows
on Jan 17, 2020 at 12:50 pm

This is in everybody's face. .. Again. Not housing, not retail, not a school or medical office, not a place to eat, not free space. No one in Palo Alto wins except the retirees who may not live here but are getting their pensions.
Someone who calls himself Manhattan Kansas refers to "anti-housing crowd". Is the "housing crowd" happy? Anyone will be housed in that hotel?
PA always was and continues to be a cow to milk. Residents may as well get out of here.


19 people like this
Posted by Online Name
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 17, 2020 at 1:11 pm

Re retirees and pensions, very few private sector workers get pensions any more and those that got them in the past from big companies like IBM are seeing their benefits cut or eliminated.

Our government employees on the other hand, know how to double- and triple-dip so they're collecting multiple pensions with salaries and benefits that are often way more than the salary. When that policeman left after being accused of police brutality, PA first stonewalled for months the terms of his leaving and then after much pressure, finally admitted he'll be getting a pension of $118,000 (or close) for the rest of his life or another 40 or 50 years. Our past and present city managers are also collecting second pensions from Berkeley and San Jose and maybe other cities, too.


23 people like this
Posted by merry
a resident of Palo Alto Hills
on Jan 17, 2020 at 1:38 pm

Is there a hotel shortage????


12 people like this
Posted by Barron Park dad
a resident of Barron Park
on Jan 17, 2020 at 1:46 pm

To poster immediately above: yes, there is a massive hotel shortage in Palo Alto. Did you know that hotel prices per night are now higher in Palo Alto that in Manhattan? This comment is true regardless of how you feel about the merits of THIS PARTICULAR hotel proposal on the former Su Hong land site.


7 people like this
Posted by m2grs
a resident of Midtown
on Jan 17, 2020 at 4:35 pm

@Tired of corruption, it is quite offensive IMO to call this project a corruption.

There is no corruption whatsoever. This is private property. The process is transparent. Only communists confiscate a private property against the will of its owners. Thankfully our constitution forbids that.

Besides the purpose of the project is irrelevant. The complaints are about the height and mass, regardless of what the building is for. Suppose the owner does want to build a condo with BMR I bet the City will have to allow an even more massive building in exchange for BMR units.


25 people like this
Posted by zoning
a resident of College Terrace
on Jan 17, 2020 at 4:51 pm

That our city permits a development will have such a detrimental impact on the people living adjacent to it tells us all we need to know about who has and has had the majority on city council.

If the development backed majority on city council really cared about housing, commercial sites like this would have been rezoned residential when the Comprehensive Plan was updated. With our current 3/1 jobs to housing ratio we hardly need worry that Palo Alto's business sector will lose it's vibrancy any time soon, whatever our mayor says.


16 people like this
Posted by Gnar
a resident of Greenmeadow
on Jan 17, 2020 at 9:56 pm

Anyone know if the City has actually taken steps to actually wean itself off of the runaway $800m exploding pension problem these taxes are supposed to fix? Or does this perverse financial incentive doom us to a future where "Palo Alto" is synonymous with hotel glut?

We're desperate for housing, and it looks like Su Hong is a city housing inventory site.


12 people like this
Posted by mauricio
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 18, 2020 at 6:26 am

<Only communists confiscate a private property against the will of its owners.> Not true. Ever heard of eminent domaine? How do you think Oregon Expressway was built? Or the Texas Rangers baseball stadium?


20 people like this
Posted by Independent
a resident of Esther Clark Park
on Jan 18, 2020 at 7:44 am

Hotels provide transient occupancy tax revenues to the city - so they can finance out of control current consumption spending for their public employee union employees, who have captured the city council, and who are paid too much and whose overly generous pension and health benefits are bankrupting not only the city of Palo Alto, but the state of California, Illinois, Connecticut, New Jersey and New York state, among others. It's greed. And that's why the hotel has been approved. Anyone who wants to run for office has to please the public employee unions.


7 people like this
Posted by Hotlier
a resident of Green Acres
on Jan 18, 2020 at 8:17 am

I will vote “yes”.


20 people like this
Posted by Jobs and housing
a resident of Greenmeadow
on Jan 18, 2020 at 10:14 am

Why are we supporting proposals that increase jobs without increasing housing?


11 people like this
Posted by .manhattan kansas
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 18, 2020 at 10:30 am

Oh, maurucio, you are so cute. Eminent domain you get Market value for your property.


12 people like this
Posted by mauricio
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 18, 2020 at 2:37 pm

<Oh, maurucio, you are so cute. Eminent domain you get Market value for your property>

No, you don't, and still the government takes away your property, whether you like it or not.


22 people like this
Posted by Disgusted
a resident of Greenmeadow
on Jan 18, 2020 at 4:54 pm

Another example of city government run not for or by the people. Allowing another hotel while disregarding resident citizens with legitimate quality of life concerns is an abomination and shows negligent disregard for the trust given when these "public servants" were voted in.


10 people like this
Posted by Manhattan Kansas
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 18, 2020 at 5:11 pm

Maurucio, wrong again ( as usual)
Web Link

Plus you have the option to go to court.
Try again with real facts.


7 people like this
Posted by ndn
a resident of Downtown North
on Jan 19, 2020 at 10:02 am

How many floors and what is the height the Redwoods buildings?
How many rooms are there in the Redwoods?


It's the height of hypocrisy and entitlement to assume that us and only us have the right to have buildings near us exactly as we would want them and also have our own building with te same characteristics we are trying to prevent in others.

CITY,
go ahead with the hotel. Ignore petitions in this case.


9 people like this
Posted by mauricio
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 19, 2020 at 5:56 pm

Manhattan Kansas, as always, you have no idea what you're talking about. My uncle use to live on what is now Oregon Expressway back in th early 1960's. He was forced out of his house and got not nearly what he would have received if he were allowed to sell his home in the open market. Home owners in the land used to build the baseball stadium for the Texas Rangers when george W Bush was the managing owner, received cents on the dollar for their properties. You have no idea what you're talking about.


3 people like this
Posted by Watching the neighborhood
a resident of Green Acres
on Jan 20, 2020 at 12:31 am

ndn:

Being from "downtown North", you seem to have the undiscovered compassion for what is going on in "downtown South"....Total entitlement.. "ignore petition"........WoW.


12 people like this
Posted by Long Time Resident
a resident of another community
on Jan 20, 2020 at 4:54 am

Why are they building another hotel right next to that huge Cabana hotel?
They should turn that old place into housing.


6 people like this
Posted by That MV Guy
a resident of Mountain View
on Jan 20, 2020 at 5:01 am

People want their quite little towns, but truth is that there are more people every day, and accommodations must be built for them.

The suburbs of San Francisco are history. We live in a bay-surrounding metropolis now. if you want the quite, rural life, them move to a quite, rural part of the state. This isn't it.


15 people like this
Posted by Old Joe
a resident of Barron Park
on Jan 20, 2020 at 6:09 am

I agree with the post above.
The town Palo Alto once was is gone and will never come back. Development and growth are inevitable The homeless and RV population is soaring in the Bay Area. The rich are getting richer while the poor are being left behind.

Water shortages should be one of our biggest focuses, along with the devastating impacts of climate change on our once flourishing state. Another Hotel ? More plants and trees removed ? Real smart PACC. Great leadership.

Unfortunately our politicians (local and National) are not leaders. They simply follow the money they need to win the next election. The party of fiscal responsibility, family, and prosperity for all is gone and will never return. The GOP is now the party of big money, and so follows the PA Politicians in the pockets of developers. America is laughed at and mocked and despised around the world. We are witnessing the collapse of the great nation that was once a moral Pilar and beacon of hope to the world.

We may be watching our country and futures go down the drain , but at least we’ll have another hotel.


7 people like this
Posted by Manhattan Kansas
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 20, 2020 at 10:10 am

You have no idea what you're talking about.”

Says the man who thinks Palo Alto is becoming like Manhattan.LOL.

What happened to your “uncle” decades ago is irrelevant to the law regarding eminent domain these days and what happened with the Texas rangers is also irrelevant to Palo Alto.
Now, do yiu have any relevant information for us?????


4 people like this
Posted by mauricio
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 20, 2020 at 11:35 am

[Post removed due to inaccurate factual assertions.]


8 people like this
Posted by Bob Moss
a resident of Barron Park
on Jan 20, 2020 at 12:44 pm

It's important to note that a hotel is allowed on the site with current zoning, so the basic project is consistent with the Comprehensive Plan and zoning. Design per ARB review is all that normally is required. One can dispute the approved design or specific details of the design, like window placement or color, or appearance, or shading nearby properties, and appeal to the City Council, but it is rare for the Council to reject a project. They sometimes ask the ARB to reconsider part of the design and then review the revised proposal, but a total rejection is very unlikely.

This issue has generated lots of comments, so it apparently is controversial.

Replacing the restaurant with a hotel was proposed and basically approved years ago, so the only real issues are design details like setback, color, window placement, impacts on nearby residences, etc.

Regards, Bob


5 people like this
Posted by Manhattan Kansas
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 20, 2020 at 1:53 pm

[Portion removed.]

Not sure why you are even discussing eminent domain. The discussed hotel is on private property, so eminent domain does not come into play.
But since you are harping on eminent domain:

Web Link

Offer of Just Compensation: You will receive a written offer to acquire your property, along with an appraisal or a summary statement of the valuation. The offer cannot be lower than the amount of the appraisal in most cases and is based on an opinion of the fair market value of your property. Public entities often include documents necessary to complete the transaction. Typically, the amount offered is less than you may think the property is worth. Moreover, you may want to challenge the public entity's right to take your property or request changes to the design of the project to minimize impacts on you. Accordingly, accepting the offer at this point is often unadvisable"


[Portion removed.]
Now how do you see Palo Alto becoming manhattan??? Where will all the world class museums be built? What about the Broadway Theater district? where will that be built? Will there be a subway or will Caltrain suffice?? what about the 42nd St entertainment district? Where will that be in Palo Alto???


17 people like this
Posted by Online Name
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 20, 2020 at 2:25 pm

If Palo Alto is so serious about "housing" and the homeless, then all future hotels and luxury developments should provide ample affordable and BMR units BEFORE the "leaders" start hypocritically pushing SB50 and billions for the homeless.


24 people like this
Posted by Online Name
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 20, 2020 at 2:38 pm

Manhattan Kansas, re all the world-class museums, concerts etc., there are plenty of great places in the entire Bay Area but we can no longer get to them due to the insanely gridlocked traffic and inadequate transit and the insanity of replacing parking at the Millbrae BART station with yet more housing.

We're already totally gridlocked. We've all given up the amenities of living here because of the "Nantattanization" of the entire Bay Area -- concerts in the East Bay because it takes 5 hours to get there, 6PM parties across town because of all the commuters, etc etc etc, --

Why are WE paying premium prices to become prisoners in our own homes when we can't out of our driveways while big tech and the businesses that are over-running us play NO BUSINESS taxes> Eric Filseth was right that it's time to stop subsidizing the businesses and developers that have caused this mess.

Read about the protests in San Joae over how the new Google developments have doubled housing prices and while the city knocks down affordable housing. Shameful hypocrisy.


4 people like this
Posted by Manhattan Kansas
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 20, 2020 at 2:57 pm

Online name - totally gridlocked?????
Bad on a ridiculous comment like that, there is no point in addressing the rest of your post


26 people like this
Posted by Online Name
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 20, 2020 at 3:11 pm

Yes, being totally gtidlocked is pretty ridiculous, We gave ourselves 4 hours to get to an 8PM concert in Berkeley. Both bridges were gridlocked so we decided to go through San Francisco but no luck there either and ended up at Burlingam restaurant after sitting in 101 traffic for a few hours.

Then people guilt-tripped us for daring to drive so we took Millbrae BART to another event only to be warned against trying that because the BART parking lot was going to be replaced by housing close to transit.

The time it takes to cross El Camino with Embarcadero and Oregon gridlocked IS totally ridiculous.


6 people like this
Posted by Manhattan Kansas
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 20, 2020 at 4:40 pm

Online name- so you has a bad experience in traffic on day. Could have been an accident or construction . And of course you exaggerate the incident to suggest that their is total gridlock all the time throughout the Bay Area.
Total gridlock all the time would mean that traffic is not moving 24 hours a day. Not possible. BTW, you should have taken the train from millbrae or Daly City.
When will Palo Alto residents realize that their constant fanciful tales of how terrible it is for them are not taken seriously given the “tall tale” nature of their complaints.


16 people like this
Posted by Online Name
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 20, 2020 at 7:34 pm

Manhattan Kansas -- I wish it were ONE day but as anyone knows who tries to get anywhere, it's every single weekday when we're over-run by workers 6:1.

Have you been on Embaracdero or Oregon after 3PM?? Or tried to get across El Camino? But hey, our transportation "experts" will fix the light we've been complaining about for years sometime in the next 20 years. Maybe.

Or maybe Mayor Kniss can suggest alternate routes since according to her we have no traffic problems.

You obviously didn't read / comprehend my post. Taking the train from Millbrae -- which we did the 2d time -- will be even tougher because they're REPLACING the Millbrae PARKING lot with HOUSING units.


6 people like this
Posted by Manhattan kansas
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 20, 2020 at 8:01 pm

Online name - the parking garage at Millbrae is open and there are 3 other stations further north with parking. There are plenty of spaces after 3pm.
Embarcadero and El Camino has been a problem for over a decade. The city refuses to address it.
Now, what about the 24 gridlock you were mentioning?


10 people like this
Posted by bikermom
a resident of Mayfield
on Jan 20, 2020 at 9:01 pm

And yet another example of how little Palo Alto cares about it's current residence.


7 people like this
Posted by Woke
a resident of Mountain View
on Jan 20, 2020 at 10:12 pm

Manhattan Kansas...what is your point? What are your suggestions to improve traffic, infrastructure?


1 person likes this
Posted by Fairmeadow Dad
a resident of Fairmeadow
on Jan 21, 2020 at 6:56 am

Dear @Manhattan Kansas,

With all due respect, your comment "Maurucio--LOL. Maybe Manhattan, Kansas. Have you ever been to Manhattan? No comparison, but makes a nice deflection for the anti housing crowd" intentionally misses the literary point in order to become adversarial but to call a hotel a defelction for the anti-housing crowd is laughable. Not to be glib, but do you live in a hotel in Palo Alto?


13 people like this
Posted by Barron Park Cat
a resident of Barron Park
on Jan 21, 2020 at 9:13 am

Regarding the comments about hotel shortage. There is actually only a shortage of rooms during the week (going by the sky high prices). It is quite cheap to stay in Palo Alto on the weekend. This is another symptom of lack of affordable housing (and bruising commute times) leading to workers temporarily living in hotels during the week (driving the "shortage") and going home on weekends (leaving excess capacity).

The solution to the hotel shortage is more housing not more hotels.


17 people like this
Posted by Anon
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 21, 2020 at 4:01 pm

>> Chairman Peter Baltay argued that the hotel is consistent with the city's vision for south El Camino Real. "It does a good job balancing between a residential facility in the back of the building and our desire to create a 'grand boulevard' in the front, on El Camino Real," Baltay said.

"Grand Boulevard". LOL. Anybody know what a "grand boulevard" is and why it doesn't include nice wide sidewalks and some kind of walkable commerce? To me, it just looks more and more like an expressway lined with postmodern sameness. Whatever.

So, how many employees are typically on staff for a high-end ~100 room hotel? More jobs, more housing deficit. Where will the staff live? Modesto I guess.


10 people like this
Posted by Manhattan?
a resident of Crescent Park
on Jan 21, 2020 at 4:10 pm

> Palo Alto is becoming Manhattan.

^^^the diversity factor is making PA look more like Queens.


Like this comment
Posted by pmarca
a resident of Stanford
on Jan 21, 2020 at 11:43 pm

Glad the NIMBYS failed to block this, but wish every new building was at least 10 stories.

10 stories is still small.


11 people like this
Posted by Anon
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 22, 2020 at 2:06 pm

Posted by pmarca, a resident of Stanford

>> Glad the NIMBYS failed to block this, but wish every new building was at least 10 stories.
>> 10 stories is still small.

Because you just personally like skyscrapers everywhere regardless? Just out of idle curiosity, can you answer a few questions for me? What is an example of a city or section of a city that is your ideal urban environment? Do you want to reproduce that here? Everywhere on the planet? Why here in particular?

--

Posted by Manhattan kansas, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood

>> Online name - the parking garage at Millbrae is open and there are 3 other stations further north with parking. There are plenty of spaces after 3pm.

Manhattan kansas: I have no idea what point you are trying to make, but, I have had *exactly* the same experiences as Online name. I use Caltrain whenever I can to get up and down the Peninsula. I've changed between BART and Caltrain at Millbrae, but, living here, I've never had a reason to *park* there, and, I'm not sure why anyone from here would park there very often, since the whole point we are discussing is how difficult it is to get out of here during rush hour due to. the traffic. More to the point: Online name wanted to go to the Eastbay for an event. I've had the same experience as Online name being stuck in traffic moving at 6-12 mph for 4-5 hours. If your point is to nitpick the word "gridlock", while it is correct that by the original meaning, gridlock is *zero* movement, i.e.: "A traffic jam in which no vehicular movement is possible, especially one caused by the blockage of key intersections within a grid of streets.", the word is also commonly used when the "offered load" exceeds capacity so much that efficient flow breaks down. It is perhaps better referred to as "congestion collapse" if you are trying to be overly precise. But, split hairs aside, any time the end-to-end traffic speed is less than 10 mph for an extended distance/time -- "it sucks". And, it happens *every* single weekday afternoon on a normal workday.


13 people like this
Posted by Online Name
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 22, 2020 at 3:44 pm

Anon, Manhattan Kansas is just trying to confuse the issues and/or remains sadly confused about the use of the future tense. The decision *to replace* BART parking in the FUTURE with housing close to transportation means Peninsula residents trying to take public transit WILL HAVE a tougher time in the FUTURE due to short-sighted policies like this.

The fact remains that Peninsula residents are being deprived of access to all the Bay Area had to offer in terms of entertainment, museums etc. because we can't get there from here.

Manhattan Kansas seems determined to twist what's being said. I never said gridlock is 24-7 problem. I said gridlock is NOW a major problem during the work week during morning and evening rush hours 5 (FIVE) days a week as well as school drop-off and pickup times (3pm).


4 people like this
Posted by Manhattan kansas
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 22, 2020 at 4:15 pm

Anon- online name mentioned an incident in which he could not make it to an easy Bay event due to traffic. I suggested he drive to Millbrae Ave take Bart. Online name said that parking has been closed due to housing being built. I said the parking garage was open and that there were other stations with parking north of Millbrae. Understand my point?

Online name- the only one trying to confuse the issue is you. You can also take caltrain to the Millbrae station, so claiming we cannot get to east bay everyday is as exaggerated as saying we are totally gridlocked.
And your original statement was " we are totally gridlocked". Only now so you say gridlock is a major problem during rush hours. And all anyone has to do is read your comments above to see that you are trying to confuse the issues.


7 people like this
Posted by Anon
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 22, 2020 at 4:43 pm

Posted by Manhattan kansas, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood

>> You can also take caltrain to the Millbrae station, so claiming we cannot get to east bay everyday is as exaggerated as saying we are totally gridlocked.

By your reasoning, a condo located at the Millbrae station must be just about perfect. I guess you will be able to get almost anywhere from there quickly, right?

Here is an experiment for you, which is pretty similar to actual attempts that I have made to find ways to get together with various people I know on the eastern side of the bay. Use websites, Google Maps, your nine favorite transit tools for your smartphone, etc, to figure out ways to use public transit from either Palo Alto or the Millbrae hub to visit with people, either at their Eastbay or Santa Clara County homes. Be prepared for 5 step processes that take 14 hours. Unless all your friends live above a BART or Caltrain station. You have to wait, traverse a segment, walk, wait, traverse another segment, wait, ... Want to get back? Better be sleeping over ...

>> And your original statement was " we are totally gridlocked". Only now so you say gridlock is a major problem during rush hours. And all anyone has to do is read your comments above to see that you are trying to confuse the issues.

Online name was right. You can't get there from here, "now", eg. at 5 PM, because of traffic. Traffic delays will add at least 2 hours during rush hour, and, some of us have all experienced those actual gridlock days when it is 5 hours. Why pretend otherwise?


11 people like this
Posted by Online Name
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 22, 2020 at 5:00 pm

Manhattan Kansas, yes please reread and see where your confusion lies.

I mentioned 2 incidents, one of which we had to eat the cost of our tickets while waiting out rush hour in Burlingame. Re the SECOND event, I wrote,

"Then people guilt-tripped us for daring to drive so we took Millbrae BART to ***another*** event only to be warned against trying that because the BART parking lot was going to be replaced by housing close to transit."

"Another" refers to the SECOND event. Yes, we parked there without problems THAT TIME but won't be able to in the FUTURE WHEN parking is replaced by housing.

You obviously didn't read / comprehend my post. Taking the train from Millbrae -- which we did the 2d time -- will be even tougher because they're REPLACING the Millbrae PARKING lot with HOUSING units.

Replacing transit parking lots with housing STILL makes it tough for people hoping to use transit and seems like yet another short-sighted policy. Care to comment on that?

MK says "Only now so you say gridlock is a major problem during rush hours. And all anyone has to do is read your comments above to see that you are trying to confuse the issues."

Quoting from my posts above you'll note YOU haven';t answered my questions while continuing to deflect from the real issues at hand. So I repeat:

"Have you been on Embaracdero or Oregon after 3PM?? Or tried to get across El Camino? But hey, our transportation "experts" will fix the light we've been complaining about for years sometime in the next 20 years. Maybe.

Or maybe Mayor Kniss can suggest alternate routes since according to her we have no traffic problems."






9 people like this
Posted by Online Name
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 22, 2020 at 5:09 pm

Back to one of mypoints way up topic, given the problems PA is having meeting its housing requirements, given the fact that we have the highest construction costs in the area if not the country and given the fact that developers are increasingly saying it's too costly to build housing Web Link, why not require every hotel coming up for approval to dedicate a certain number of units to housing?


2 people like this
Posted by musical
a resident of Palo Verde
on Jan 22, 2020 at 6:16 pm

^ ... because if we can't collect the TOT then we are in an even bigger hole.


2 people like this
Posted by Manhattan kansas
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jan 22, 2020 at 7:51 pm

Anon- I made a suggestion to solve online names problem. Not sure what you are going on and on and on and on about. But enjoy

Online name- see above comment


6 people like this
Posted by Online Name
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jan 22, 2020 at 9:20 pm

Musical, Good comment "^... because if we can't collect the TOT then we are in an even bigger hole," it would be interesting to see a comparison between lost hotel revenue for the dedicated units and the costs of providing housing of various types.


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