Real Estate

East Palo Alto's median home value nears $1M

Long-ignored market now considered among the hottest in Bay Area

Maria Lopez-Okano grew up in East Palo Alto and started selling real estate in her home town in 1987.

For the last 31 years, the ReMax Realtor has seen many market cycles, including boom times that sent property values in neighboring cities skyrocketing. Though East Palo Alto seemed immune to market growth, she always thought there would come a time when her town would be the place to buy. And now it is, she said, only about two years after she thought it would happen.

This summer, for the first time ever, the average price of a home sold in East Palo Alto topped $1 million.

Lopez-Okano described this once-ignored working-class community as "a 2 1/2-mile-radius city amongst million-dollar properties" that's suddenly on everyone's radar because it is relatively affordable in a sought-after part of the Midpeninsula. In September, East Palo Alto had 16 homes on the market listed under $1.5 million, and Menlo Park had about three or four in the same price range.

According to the Silicon Valley Association of Realtors, which collects its data from the Multiple Listing Service, East Palo Alto's median home value -- the price of the home at the midpoint of all homes sold in the city each year -- has jumped $580,000 over the past six years, from $400,000 in 2013 to $980,000 in 2018. The market showed the largest gains between 2014 and 2016 when the annual median value rose $150,000 and $125,000 respectively.

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So far this year, the highest sale recorded was $1.9 million for a 1,660-square-foot home with three bedrooms. The lowest recorded sale was $415,000 for a 1,050-square foot home.

The market is expected to rise another 10.3 percent within the next year, pushing the median home value to $1.06 million, according to the online real-estate database company Zillow.

"The only bad thing is we're going through major gentrification," Lopez-Okano said.

She said people used to carefully assess what street or part of the city they bought in because some were cleaner or safer than others. With the city bisected by U.S. Highway 101, homes on the west side were considered more desirable because of their proximity to ultra-wealthy Palo Alto and Menlo Park, and there was a perception that crime was not as frequent there as on the "east side."

But that is not as much the case today.

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The violent crime, homicides, drugs and gang activity, which reached a pinnacle in 1992, are significantly reduced. Until this fall, the city hadn't seen a single homicide for more than two years.

Are buyers deterred by the lingering perceptions of crime or the city's current issues with trash-strewn streets? Not really, she said. What about the struggling public schools? Lopez-Okano said she often refers clients to the voluntary transfer program that allows East Palo Alto students in the Ravenswood City School District to transfer to other surrounding districts.

"We have a lot of really nice charter schools," she added.

Her buyers are often young couples without children, so the school decision can be made later on down the road. She said that some of her clients are Stanford University graduates who are teaching in schools in East Palo Alto.

What's changed among her buyers?

"It used to be (I sold to) African Americans, (Pacific) Islanders or Hispanics," she said, but now, "in the last six years, I haven't sold to any of those. "What I'm seeing come in is young professionals who are racially mixed," Lopez-Okano said.

She personally doesn't sell to investors or those who probably won't live in the community.

"I want to see the community get better," she said.

She encourages her clients to do "due diligence" and come to town at the end of the day and on weekends to get a sense for what it would be like to live there and gauge things like safety, what it's like to walk there, what it's like to live on a certain street.

Unlike Lopez-Okano, Realtor Paymon Ghafouri feels like there are certain neighborhoods that might be more sought-after than others. He said the most popular part of East Palo Alto is the southern side of University Avenue and the west side of Bay Road, which are closer to schools, Baylands open space and the Ravenswood 101 shopping center.

He agrees with Lopez-Okano that it is important to have clients experience the city for themselves.

"I encourage (potential buyers) to come one morning. ... They see that people of all skin colors are jogging, walking children to school, riding their bicycles."

He sees lots of executives from Google, Facebook and Tesla, as well as Stanford University employees, buying homes. The majority view it as a place to live that's closer to work or to the Dumbarton Bridge, which connects to Fremont.

Ghafouri, who has his own real-estate firm in Redwood City, said East Palo Alto is one of the hottest real-estate cities in the Bay Area and the No. 1 hottest city on this side of the bay.

He personally owns five properties in East Palo Alto and lives in one in the Gardens neighborhood. Most of his buyers renovate their homes, rather than tearing them down, he said.

About half of his buyers live in the homes; the other half buy them as an investment. One client he works with has 11 properties, eight of which Ghafouri sold him.

His buyers are often young couples without children.

"It's a stepping stone" where many couples are choosing to live now before buying later in a nearby city when they have children, he said.

Intero Realtor James Shin mostly sells in neighboring east Menlo Park, which shares similar demographics to East Palo Alto. He said the trends he sees in east Menlo Park and the eastern neighborhoods in Redwood City can easily apply to East Palo Alto.

"Eastern Redwood City, east Menlo Park and East Palo Alto are still continuing to gentrify," he said.

Facebook "has (had) a huge impact."

Many of his clients are investors, who are willing to take more financial risks since the city's track record for property appreciation is still relatively short. Others are "aggressively exploring" east Menlo Park acquisitions as a result of Facebook.

While he was showing an east Menlo Park home recently, a majority of the visitors to the house were interested in it "because of its close proximity to Facebook," he said. They "see (Facebook) as a factor in continuous gentrification of the area."

He doesn't have a firm statistic but said that in his experience, 80 percent of the buyers he deals with are local investors and 20 percent are out-of-town buyers who are relocating to the area. Three of his recent sales (two in East Palo Alto, one in east Menlo Park) were to local investors.

The addition of new housing is on the city of East Palo Alto's radar, as its general plan envisions adding 2,500 new residential units by 2040.

City leaders have the power to decide what their vision should be and how they want their city to look, but market forces don't necessarily pay attention to that. Longtime East Palo Alto resident Maureen Larsson, who had a career at a technology company, has very mixed feelings about the changes the escalating real estate market is causing.

"I mostly only see the high real estate prices as a good thing as far as city revenue is concerned," Larsson said. "I'd be more inclined to see it as a good thing if banks weren't currently refusing so many housing loans to African Americans and Latinos," she said.

She said it's important for East Palo Alto, as it is in most communities, to maintain "cultural identifiers" amid gentrification. She said the key is likely for newcomers to make the effort to understand the city's history.

"Don't try to affect change without buy-in from long-term residents," she said.

On the flip side, long-term residents need to "build relationships with newcomers who want to preserve the unique aspects of this community," she added.

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East Palo Alto's median home value nears $1M

Long-ignored market now considered among the hottest in Bay Area

by / Palo Alto Weekly

Uploaded: Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 1:01 pm

Maria Lopez-Okano grew up in East Palo Alto and started selling real estate in her home town in 1987.

For the last 31 years, the ReMax Realtor has seen many market cycles, including boom times that sent property values in neighboring cities skyrocketing. Though East Palo Alto seemed immune to market growth, she always thought there would come a time when her town would be the place to buy. And now it is, she said, only about two years after she thought it would happen.

This summer, for the first time ever, the average price of a home sold in East Palo Alto topped $1 million.

Lopez-Okano described this once-ignored working-class community as "a 2 1/2-mile-radius city amongst million-dollar properties" that's suddenly on everyone's radar because it is relatively affordable in a sought-after part of the Midpeninsula. In September, East Palo Alto had 16 homes on the market listed under $1.5 million, and Menlo Park had about three or four in the same price range.

According to the Silicon Valley Association of Realtors, which collects its data from the Multiple Listing Service, East Palo Alto's median home value -- the price of the home at the midpoint of all homes sold in the city each year -- has jumped $580,000 over the past six years, from $400,000 in 2013 to $980,000 in 2018. The market showed the largest gains between 2014 and 2016 when the annual median value rose $150,000 and $125,000 respectively.

So far this year, the highest sale recorded was $1.9 million for a 1,660-square-foot home with three bedrooms. The lowest recorded sale was $415,000 for a 1,050-square foot home.

The market is expected to rise another 10.3 percent within the next year, pushing the median home value to $1.06 million, according to the online real-estate database company Zillow.

"The only bad thing is we're going through major gentrification," Lopez-Okano said.

She said people used to carefully assess what street or part of the city they bought in because some were cleaner or safer than others. With the city bisected by U.S. Highway 101, homes on the west side were considered more desirable because of their proximity to ultra-wealthy Palo Alto and Menlo Park, and there was a perception that crime was not as frequent there as on the "east side."

But that is not as much the case today.

The violent crime, homicides, drugs and gang activity, which reached a pinnacle in 1992, are significantly reduced. Until this fall, the city hadn't seen a single homicide for more than two years.

Are buyers deterred by the lingering perceptions of crime or the city's current issues with trash-strewn streets? Not really, she said. What about the struggling public schools? Lopez-Okano said she often refers clients to the voluntary transfer program that allows East Palo Alto students in the Ravenswood City School District to transfer to other surrounding districts.

"We have a lot of really nice charter schools," she added.

Her buyers are often young couples without children, so the school decision can be made later on down the road. She said that some of her clients are Stanford University graduates who are teaching in schools in East Palo Alto.

What's changed among her buyers?

"It used to be (I sold to) African Americans, (Pacific) Islanders or Hispanics," she said, but now, "in the last six years, I haven't sold to any of those. "What I'm seeing come in is young professionals who are racially mixed," Lopez-Okano said.

She personally doesn't sell to investors or those who probably won't live in the community.

"I want to see the community get better," she said.

She encourages her clients to do "due diligence" and come to town at the end of the day and on weekends to get a sense for what it would be like to live there and gauge things like safety, what it's like to walk there, what it's like to live on a certain street.

Unlike Lopez-Okano, Realtor Paymon Ghafouri feels like there are certain neighborhoods that might be more sought-after than others. He said the most popular part of East Palo Alto is the southern side of University Avenue and the west side of Bay Road, which are closer to schools, Baylands open space and the Ravenswood 101 shopping center.

He agrees with Lopez-Okano that it is important to have clients experience the city for themselves.

"I encourage (potential buyers) to come one morning. ... They see that people of all skin colors are jogging, walking children to school, riding their bicycles."

He sees lots of executives from Google, Facebook and Tesla, as well as Stanford University employees, buying homes. The majority view it as a place to live that's closer to work or to the Dumbarton Bridge, which connects to Fremont.

Ghafouri, who has his own real-estate firm in Redwood City, said East Palo Alto is one of the hottest real-estate cities in the Bay Area and the No. 1 hottest city on this side of the bay.

He personally owns five properties in East Palo Alto and lives in one in the Gardens neighborhood. Most of his buyers renovate their homes, rather than tearing them down, he said.

About half of his buyers live in the homes; the other half buy them as an investment. One client he works with has 11 properties, eight of which Ghafouri sold him.

His buyers are often young couples without children.

"It's a stepping stone" where many couples are choosing to live now before buying later in a nearby city when they have children, he said.

Intero Realtor James Shin mostly sells in neighboring east Menlo Park, which shares similar demographics to East Palo Alto. He said the trends he sees in east Menlo Park and the eastern neighborhoods in Redwood City can easily apply to East Palo Alto.

"Eastern Redwood City, east Menlo Park and East Palo Alto are still continuing to gentrify," he said.

Facebook "has (had) a huge impact."

Many of his clients are investors, who are willing to take more financial risks since the city's track record for property appreciation is still relatively short. Others are "aggressively exploring" east Menlo Park acquisitions as a result of Facebook.

While he was showing an east Menlo Park home recently, a majority of the visitors to the house were interested in it "because of its close proximity to Facebook," he said. They "see (Facebook) as a factor in continuous gentrification of the area."

He doesn't have a firm statistic but said that in his experience, 80 percent of the buyers he deals with are local investors and 20 percent are out-of-town buyers who are relocating to the area. Three of his recent sales (two in East Palo Alto, one in east Menlo Park) were to local investors.

The addition of new housing is on the city of East Palo Alto's radar, as its general plan envisions adding 2,500 new residential units by 2040.

City leaders have the power to decide what their vision should be and how they want their city to look, but market forces don't necessarily pay attention to that. Longtime East Palo Alto resident Maureen Larsson, who had a career at a technology company, has very mixed feelings about the changes the escalating real estate market is causing.

"I mostly only see the high real estate prices as a good thing as far as city revenue is concerned," Larsson said. "I'd be more inclined to see it as a good thing if banks weren't currently refusing so many housing loans to African Americans and Latinos," she said.

She said it's important for East Palo Alto, as it is in most communities, to maintain "cultural identifiers" amid gentrification. She said the key is likely for newcomers to make the effort to understand the city's history.

"Don't try to affect change without buy-in from long-term residents," she said.

On the flip side, long-term residents need to "build relationships with newcomers who want to preserve the unique aspects of this community," she added.

Comments

Robert
Atherton
on Oct 18, 2018 at 6:24 pm
Robert, Atherton
on Oct 18, 2018 at 6:24 pm
73 people like this

[Post removed.]


Aynsley
Woodside
on Oct 18, 2018 at 6:43 pm
Aynsley, Woodside
on Oct 18, 2018 at 6:43 pm
82 people like this

[Post removed.]







KT
East Palo Alto
on Oct 18, 2018 at 7:08 pm
KT, East Palo Alto
on Oct 18, 2018 at 7:08 pm
24 people like this

[Post removed due to deletion of referenced comment.]


Aynsley
Woodside
on Oct 18, 2018 at 7:36 pm
Aynsley, Woodside
on Oct 18, 2018 at 7:36 pm
70 people like this

"Aynsley: You might want to get some perspective if you don't know it already on the history of East Palo Alto, as if you understood that I am not sure you would suggest it should be named something different."

**In 1868, what is now EPA was known as Ravenswood and it was never a part of Palo Alto.

In 1968, the area was almost renamed Nairobi after the Swahili-speaking capital of Kenya...except that no one in EPA actually spoke Swahili. Go figure.



Mark Dinan
Registered user
East Palo Alto
on Oct 18, 2018 at 8:16 pm
Mark Dinan, East Palo Alto
Registered user
on Oct 18, 2018 at 8:16 pm
43 people like this

It is not surprising that prices in EPA are sky rocketing. EPA is in the center of Silicon Valley, and an easy bike ride to Facebook, Google, and Stanford. I've lived here since 2009, and have enjoyed a remarkably good quality of life with great neighbors, daily walks on the Bay Trail near my house, and only an 8 minute drive to downtown Palo Alto.

EPA is definitely ethnically diverse, mixed income, and cut from a different cloth than Palo Alto or Menlo Park. It is great to live in a community that brings so many people from different walks of life together. I have friends in EPA who are war refugees from El Salvador working as gardeners, MIT graduates working on self driving cars, pastors of churches in EPA and beyond, teachers in the Palo Alto school district, Stanford professors, Mexican immigrants who run restaurants and cleaning services, more than a few software engineers at Google, Facebook, and Apple, and other tech companies.

And Robert in Woodside - be careful what you wish for. The minute EPA becomes a high income community is the day where you will have to cut your own lawn and clean your own house. Even worse, you might even have to have to provide affordable housing in your own community!


Resident
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Oct 18, 2018 at 8:47 pm
Resident, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Oct 18, 2018 at 8:47 pm
9 people like this

EPA is a perfect place to build more housing, low income housing, apartments, townhomes, places where millenials can afford to rent a studio, teachers and first responders can rent a townhome, and apartments are available for retail and restaurant workers all at affordable rents.

There are many empty lots waiting development and that should be done now. The schools should improve if the school board can get moving (a few changes needed I believe).

Perhaps within a couple of years EPA will have a better reputation that it has had in the past. It is really up to EPA to do it and as a result I think Palo Alto will be in full support of our neighbor.


Robert
Atherton
on Oct 18, 2018 at 8:55 pm
Robert, Atherton
on Oct 18, 2018 at 8:55 pm
6 people like this

@ Mark Dinan

"And Robert in Woodside * (Atherton, CA) - be careful what you wish for. The minute EPA becomes a high income community is the day where you will have to cut your own lawn and clean your own house. Even worse, you might even have to have to provide affordable housing in your own community!"

My part-time landscaper and full-time housekeeper (husband and wife) both recently purchased a home in Sunnyvale, CA, I pay well.


Aynsley
Woodside
on Oct 18, 2018 at 9:08 pm
Aynsley, Woodside
on Oct 18, 2018 at 9:08 pm
41 people like this

> My part-time landscaper and full-time housekeeper (husband and wife) both recently purchased a home in Sunnyvale, CA, I pay well.

I probably don't pay as well as Robert but our ranch caretaker lives on the property and manages the stables and acreage.

Wife still does the housekeeping & cooking but she's still young enough (37) to do so. Remuneration includes horses and various accounts at Stanford Shopping Center + a new car every couple of years.

Not relying on EPA for anything.


Rob
Atherton
on Oct 18, 2018 at 9:08 pm
Rob, Atherton
on Oct 18, 2018 at 9:08 pm
7 people like this

@ KT

"Those of every income have a right to live in East Palo Alto or any community that they wish for that matter."

Hmmmm lets see, I want to work at McDonald's AND live in Beverly Hills surrounded by people who purchased their house by working hard and smart which allowed them to live in Beverly Hills.......Shouldn't work that way buddy!


TK
East Palo Alto
on Oct 19, 2018 at 12:37 am
TK, East Palo Alto
on Oct 19, 2018 at 12:37 am
33 people like this

The incredibly arrogant and ignorant opinions expressed by some of the previous commenters are exactly the reasons I’m happy to be in EPA, where I’m part of a more diverse and accepting community. You don’t need to “depend” on a community’s resources to care about the people there - just be a decent human being.


arnoldmoyers
Registered user
Charleston Gardens
on Oct 19, 2018 at 4:12 am
arnoldmoyers, Charleston Gardens
Registered user
on Oct 19, 2018 at 4:12 am
Like this comment

I totally agree with this article, EPA is a perfect place to build more housing, low-income housing, apartments, townhomes, places. People living there enjoying the place as it is more affordable, as well as the apartment, is also ready for rent. But before you go for buying the apartments make sure the society is done with a Fire/ Flood/ Water damage insurance. As one of my friends who is living at Azusa faced water damage at Azusa and when she asked an insurance company they denied the restoration cost, [Portion removed.]


john_alderman
Registered user
Crescent Park
on Oct 19, 2018 at 7:31 am
john_alderman, Crescent Park
Registered user
on Oct 19, 2018 at 7:31 am
4 people like this

There are huge plots of undeveloped land that would be perfect for high density housing. Across from Facebook, along Bayshore, Willow, and University. Unfortunately, in the Liberal hierarchy of importance, birds > people of color, so we are stuck with undeveloped land in the bay area staying undeveloped. Silicon Valley will eventually just be billionaires and birds, with all lower forms of human life forced out.


Blue Collar
another community
on Oct 19, 2018 at 7:51 am
Blue Collar, another community
on Oct 19, 2018 at 7:51 am
6 people like this

Back in 2011, we trued to buy a house in EPA.The house was $250,000 we had $40,000 cash for a down payment. We had a 800 +/- FICO score. Since we did not have an all cash offer it was a no go. Most of the people that we were competing against were non U.S. born. The U.S. scrutinizes it" s own citizens, but if you are from another country, have all the money ( from God knows where)you just have to pay 15% when the house is sold.

U.S. is the biggest money laundering country in the world.

God Bless America



Aynsley
Woodside
on Oct 19, 2018 at 9:21 am
Aynsley, Woodside
on Oct 19, 2018 at 9:21 am
12 people like this

> The U.S. scrutinizes it" s own citizens, but if you are from another country, have all the money (from God knows where) you just have to pay 15% when the house is sold.

The Statue of Liberty ensures this for those from abroad...(sort of)

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”
― Emma Lazarus


Mark Dinan
Registered user
East Palo Alto
on Oct 19, 2018 at 11:17 am
Mark Dinan, East Palo Alto
Registered user
on Oct 19, 2018 at 11:17 am
9 people like this

East Palo Alto, Palo Alto, Menlo Park, Mountain View, Woodside, Atherton, and all other cities need to step up an provide affordable housing. EPA is already doing its part to provide affordable housing, and other communities need to do their part too if the regional housing crisis is to be resolved. EPA cannot be the only city which has affordable housing on the peninsula.


Room With a View
Portola Valley
on Oct 19, 2018 at 1:37 pm
Room With a View, Portola Valley
on Oct 19, 2018 at 1:37 pm
26 people like this

>>> Headline: East Palo Alto's median home value nears $1M

I certainly wouldn't pay that much for a home in EPA. But on the other hand, it's a nice ROI for those who gambled and took a chance on living there.


Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Oct 19, 2018 at 3:16 pm
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Oct 19, 2018 at 3:16 pm
1 person likes this

Posted by john_alderman, a resident of Crescent Park

>> Unfortunately, in the Liberal hierarchy of importance, birds > people of color,

If you hate all the birds, parks, and liberals here so much, why do you live here? Why not move to a place that is mostly right-wing authoritarians and suburban sprawl? I think you would be much happier in the Dallas/Fort Worth/Plano/Arlington area. Fewest number of birds and liberals per capita of any major metropolitan area.


EPA resident
Charleston Gardens
on Oct 19, 2018 at 3:23 pm
EPA resident, Charleston Gardens
on Oct 19, 2018 at 3:23 pm
2 people like this

@ Mark Dinan

Your tenants are HI income ppl, not low income.

why don't you rent your house to low income ppl ?


Why Nairobi of All Names?
College Terrace
on Oct 19, 2018 at 5:39 pm
Why Nairobi of All Names?, College Terrace
on Oct 19, 2018 at 5:39 pm
22 people like this

[Post removed.]


Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Oct 19, 2018 at 5:45 pm
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Oct 19, 2018 at 5:45 pm
2 people like this

Posted by Why Nairobi of All Names?, a resident of College Terrace

>> I imagine others would not want to live in a city named Nairobi.

Why? People live in all kinds of city/names. Why "Cairo" Illinois, for example? Although, personally, I always preferred Ravenswood-- a mellifluous sound to it.

But, really, why -East- Palo Alto? EPA is actually -North- of Palo Alto, or, -East- of Atherton/RWC.


Why Nairobi of All Names?
College Terrace
on Oct 19, 2018 at 6:01 pm
Why Nairobi of All Names?, College Terrace
on Oct 19, 2018 at 6:01 pm
27 people like this

[Post removed.]


R. Davis
Crescent Park
on Oct 20, 2018 at 9:10 am
R. Davis, Crescent Park
on Oct 20, 2018 at 9:10 am
30 people like this

[Post removed.]



Larssons
East Palo Alto
on Oct 20, 2018 at 1:19 pm
Larssons, East Palo Alto
on Oct 20, 2018 at 1:19 pm
16 people like this

Some of these comments by non-residents are laughably embarrassing and shamefully bigoted. How can the editors allow these nasty comments to remain?

Imagine being able to afford to live in Atherton and Woodside, yet troll the comments section here as Robert and Aynsley have done. Imagine being so tone deaf and ignorant as other commenters making fun of East Palo Alto's name and the cultural evolvement of some of its residents. People here did speak African languages, and taught those languages to other residents. This was long before Roots, and happened all over the US. Quit trolling and opining so ignorantly and go learn something instead.

If other Silicon Valley cities had done their part to provide the correlating amount of affordable housing as E. Palo Alto has, they wouldn't be as much of an embarrassment as they currently are. As for outsiders trying to tell EPA what to do, and if we do it your city will be pleased, you're also ridiculous. Just because housing gets added in EPA doesn't mean it's not market rate. It's alarming that you don't know that. If your arrogant city would do its part to provide housing - both market rate and affordable, we'd be more supportive.


EPA Roots
another community
on Oct 20, 2018 at 1:28 pm
EPA Roots, another community
on Oct 20, 2018 at 1:28 pm
18 people like this

[Post removed.]


R.Davis
Registered user
Crescent Park
on Oct 20, 2018 at 5:34 pm
R.Davis, Crescent Park
Registered user
on Oct 20, 2018 at 5:34 pm
12 people like this

[Post removed,]


palpablum
Downtown North
on Oct 21, 2018 at 6:51 am
palpablum, Downtown North
on Oct 21, 2018 at 6:51 am
4 people like this

High density housing should be along rail lines, not in EPA.

Tear down some houses along the tracks for high density housing.

Eminent domain, baby.


Duh, Steve
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Oct 21, 2018 at 7:05 am
Duh, Steve, Duveneck/St. Francis
on Oct 21, 2018 at 7:05 am
6 people like this

Logical. High density housing belongs between 101,ECR and the tracks. Lots of mass transit for higher density housing.

The mansions belong out on the water.

Redevelopment along the tracks.

Ridiculous to put high density housing out there.


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