County looks to redesign Page Mill-Oregon, Foothill expressways

I would like to mention that also the ramps on Oregon to 101 need resurfacing. The area east of the Bayshore light suddenly becomes a mass of potholes with poor surface and almost invisible striping.

I expect some bright spark to tell me that it is a different agency. Well, poppycock and bah humbug. There is talk about the gateway to Palo Alto, well this ramp is the gateway for many and it is disgraceful.

Yes, we want to make it possible to speed through Palo Alto on the way to and from the highly dense office buildings. But wait, I thought everyone in the entire world was going to live in the high rises right next to them and magically get services and everything else without people having to leave their front doors.

I posted just above -- Sorry, I am not the same person who posted first.

The solution is to limit each house hold to exactly ONE car.

I really do not like the "improvements" that they made to the eastern part of Oregon Expressway. They removed some crosswalks and made the red lights for pedestrians much longer at other crosswalks. These changes make the divide between north Palo Alto and south Palo Alto much worse for people without cars.

And VTA wants to dedicate bus lanes. And Palo Alto approves multiple large construction projects that result in scores of large trucks traversing Oregon, Embarcadero, and El Camino. PLEASE COORDINATE PLANS AND IMPLEMENTATION.

This will make it easier, for a little while, and more attractive for more traffic, largely by non-residents, to flow into Palo Alto, whose infrastructure can't deal even with the present level of traffic. This is again pretending that a small town, which Palo Alto has always been, is a large urban metropolis.

I am all in favor of improving the Alma overpass/underpass. I take that turn from southbound Alma onto westbound Oregon Expressway every day and it never stops being a white-knuckle experience. Finding a gap in traffic when cars are accelerating downhill into the dip is terrifying. One stall at the wrong time and I would not be writing this comment. While they are at it, maybe they can improve the drainage so the dip doesn't flood in heavy rainstorms.

First of all, I don't understand why most people hide behind anonymous handles when making comments. What are you afraid of? Complaining about traffic is the most American thing you can do :-).

I'm suspicious of the County traffic engineers. I think they have a very narrow viewpoint that only looks at moving vehicle traffic as fast as possible, and doesn't consider the side effects.

As a 35 year bicycle commuter using the Bryant Street bike boulevard, I would like to point out that, contrary to this article, the recent "improvements" on Oregon Expressway did NOT improve bicycle safety at the Oregon/Bryant intersection. Instead, by providing protected left-turn lights for automobile traffic on Bryant that wants to turn onto Oregon, they are encouraging cars to use Bryant as a major access point to Oregon. This reduces bicycle safety on Bryant Street by adding more cars. Bryant is the only cross-town bicycle corridor and has been so for 30 years. The city of Palo Alto transportation folks certainly did not stand up for bicycle traffic on their own designated main bicycle corridor. If they really wanted to improve safety for bicycles using Bryant and crossing Oregon, they would have prohibited left turns by cars from Bryant onto Oregon. That would have eliminated any conflicts between cars turning and bicycles going straight and reduced car traffic on Bryant, and they could have left the old signals and saved money! Instead, our county traffic engineers see a potential conflict between cars on Bryant turning left and bicycles going straight and they "solve" it by giving priority to the cars with a protected left turn signal, making things worse (and slower) for the bicycles, with complete disregard for the goals of the bike boulevard. By the way, this street is used by hundreds of bicyclists every day.

First of all, I don't understand why most people hide behind anonymous handles when making comments. What are you afraid of? Complaining about traffic is the most American thing you can do :-).

I'm suspicious of the County traffic engineers. I think they have a very narrow viewpoint that only looks at moving vehicle traffic as fast as possible, and doesn't consider the side effects.

As a 35 year bicycle commuter using the Bryant Street bike boulevard, I would like to point out that, contrary to this article, the recent "improvements" on Oregon Expressway did NOT improve bicycle safety at the Oregon/Bryant intersection. Instead, by providing protected left-turn lights for automobile traffic on Bryant that wants to turn onto Oregon, they are encouraging cars to use Bryant as a major access point to Oregon. This reduces bicycle safety on Bryant Street by adding more cars. Bryant is the only cross-town bicycle corridor and has been so for 30 years. The city of Palo Alto transportation folks certainly did not stand up for bicycle traffic on their own designated main bicycle corridor. If they really wanted to improve safety for bicycles using Bryant and crossing Oregon, they would have prohibited left turns by cars from Bryant onto Oregon. That would have eliminated any conflicts between cars turning and bicycles going straight and reduced car traffic on Bryant, and they could have left the old signals and saved money! Instead, our county traffic engineers see a potential conflict between cars on Bryant turning left and bicycles going straight and they "solve" it by giving priority to the cars with a protected left turn signal, making things worse (and slower) for the bicycles, with complete disregard for the goals of the bike boulevard. By the way, this street is used by hundreds of bicyclists every day.

The Oregon/Page Mill/Alma intersection is quaintly Palo Alto. I've always liked it, but there are challenges to using it as has been mentioned above.

Those problems though are mostly ergonomic, that is, most of the problem I see is having to turn back 180 degrees to see what is coming, as in the southbound Alma to westbound Page Mill. The same thing happens when you try to merge from Park Blvd. going south, turning left onto that little piece or Page Mill where Page Mill does a 180 to Page Mill East.

I am pretty good at judging the car speed and seeing what I have ahead of me to merge into, and I usually do not stop in that spot at all. The problem is that some people are paralyzed by it and sit there and sit there not knowing what to do.

There are 4 places like that. If there were some mirrors and perhaps signs with suggestions of how to negotiate the merge it might work fine and not require a huge change in anything.

Changing the intersection is not going to allow significantly more traffic because it does not change the bottleneck at El Camino.

I am not aware of a lot of accidents at this intersection ... are there? I think it mainly just slows people down, and it is mostly because they don't know what to do at particular spots.

The same situation happens when you are on Alma going north and approach the Embarcadero overpass, people go nuts. They speed up on the right and try to pass in a land that is going to end quickly. A no-passing sign might be good there.

Also problems on 101 South onto Embarcadero East to the Baylands, or worse continuing South to Home Depot/Main Post Office. Everyone hates to get stuck in this place so they all try to move through it fast, meaning they get stuck in the middle of the intersection and then slow everyone else down. Post a sign that says do not enter the intersection if there is not room to make the full turn, and then enforce it.

I think a big redesign is not going to make significant improvements like some mirrors or signs might, and mirrors and signs would cost millions less not interrupt anyone for months.

I am disappointed only to find out just now that a meeting is to be held today at Terman Middle School (the article only mentioned the date and location, not the time). I would have liked to attend but have a conflict I cannot now break.

I'm all for improved bike and Pedestrian access but other than the weird merge across Page Mill near hwy 280 there is a nice bike lane that exists already. Hopefully it isn't just a political tool to sell the concept. Maybe the people seeing us cyclists cruise by as they sit in their cars will entice them out. Making a speedway shouldn't be the answer.

How about big Google-type buses running north/south on 280 from metro areas both north and south of Palo Alto? Workers could then get down at Page Mill/280 and transfer to a east/west-Page Mill/Oregon Expy bus. We need to get people out of their cars -- making more room on the roads isn't the solution! Frequent public transportation is the answer. And we need frequent and rapid bus service to and from SFO and SJC so people don't have to drive.

Even us locals dreaded rainy years when the Alma/Oregon intersection flooded. Now we dread it always. Oregon/Page Mill is one of the few streets connecting 101 and 280 and by now it should be a REAL expressway. Over or underpasses are desperately needed at El Camino Real.
However, I for one, would give priority to some sensible plan for the El Camino / Embarcadero crossing. Here we need a pedestrian overpath for students, another right turn lane into Town and Country, an underpass for Stanford activities, and extra lane in Encina Avenue for entry into T&C and the PAMF.
This is the worse traffic spot in Palo Alto.
Let's ask the new Council to do more than complain!

Palo Alto Transportation Department Chief, Jaime Rodriguez, intentionally tries to suppress information to the citizens of Palo Alto. He does it by sending out "Public Notice" postcards to the neighbors in an untimely way.
The postcards either arrive the day of the public meeting, the day after the public meeting, or the postcards don't arrive at all. I believe the city does this intentionally so that no one will show up at pubic hearings. Rodriguez doesn't want citizen input. The Transportation Dept. staff despises PA citizens, and doesn't want us to know what is going on.

Yes, Jaime Rodriguez seems very skilled at mis-leadership. Most of the public notice cards we have received arrive the day of the event, leaving no chance to schedule attendance. The others have arrived as much as THREE days after the fact.

He also makes promises that he doesn't keep, and keeps residents hanging for years at a time, as most of us can attest.

There has to be some way for this "decepticon" to be removed to a position where he cn do no harm.

On a similar note, last Saturday Middlefield Road was resurfaced from the new library to south of Piazzas. This caused gridlock for those of us who got caught up in the melee and more frustrating since I am sure many of us could have found an alternate route. We had been warned about traffic gridlock because of the Stanford game, but why oh why can't we be informed of stuff like this????

I know it was a Saturday, but we still have places to go with time schedules that need to be honored.

More lights on Alma! How can that be useful? If anything, we need fewer lights and more grade separation.

This make absolutely no sense.

Re Alma, I'm always amused by the irritating flashing lights that blink SLOW DOWN SLOW DOWN and show your speed when you're going under the 35 mph speed limits. Evidently whoever set up the lights was too clueless to reset the timer from 25MPH to 35 MPH.

I have been so tempted to be in my car with the cruise control set on 35 mph going down Alma and have a picture taken or a video showing my speedometer and the blinking 35 mph light with the message slow down. I never do, but it does tickle me to see that every so often.

I watched the speed sign on northbound Alma just north of San Antonio registering up to 90 mph this afternoon. Not a typo. Several readings in the 60s and 80s too, while traffic was flowing no faster than 35 on the wet road. Moisture must be the culprit, or the signs are simply lunatic.

All the small town advocates need to remember how expensive it is to actually live in Palo Alto. Therefore, it is only natural that people have to commute in for much sought after jobs. A lot of these jobs are being generated by many Stanford students, grads and professors who are leaders in innovation today. So if you want your small town atmosphere go move to the country! Otherwise it is a great idea to make it easier for commuters to get to their jobs as quickly as possible and try to reduce traffic congestion at key points along the way.

- There will be no benefit in wrecking the Alma/Oregon intersection. I have never seen any traffic jams, or accidents for that matter, in that spot.

- The Page Mill/Foothill crossing is a big gridlock, true. Making it over- or underpass will help.

But of course, the City officials want everything to be a "century project"; the more money is wasted the merrier.

And the practice of late notifications about pubic meetings is disgusting. Even Daily publishes it online on the same day, Wednesday. What the ...?

If the recent improvements they made to Oregon Expressway is any indications of the kind of future improvements they want to make, please stop now.

I don't now why the new traffic lights are better than the old ones other than the fact they're much better at making me wait longer when there's absolutely no traffic moving through an intersection.

Agree with the previous.

In Finland, years back in way smaller towns there were "smart" traffic lights that would go green when there were no crossing traffic for a certain time.

Would not that be helpful to manage Oregon/Page Mill traffic? But no, we are just in the most vibrant technology driven area of the US, not in a rural town of Finland. How can we even think of that? Let's just all sit in our cars. The cars are mostly Teslas, though.

" A lot of these jobs are being generated by many Stanford students, grads and professors who are leaders in innovation today. So if you want your small town atmosphere go move to the country!"

--- A-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-a-a-a-a ...

Written by a student, the way it sounds ... undergrad with that at a community college.
Right, the very people who created the SV go live in the country. Maybe they should move to Mumbai. These towns will be made into freeway corridors for the Sunnyvale commuters.

You know what, if this area is to become a large factory, we might as well set up dormitories like in China where Apple workers sleep and then go straight back to the production floors after they have been given their tea and a cookie. Mind you, I have a lot of compassion for those people.

No sweetie, this is still America and you do not get to tell people where to go live.

Last year, Palo Alto put out a traffic study to show that traffic was DECREASING! Here's a link to that story. Web Link

No one believed the data. But, whatever happened to the study. This graphic in this story directly refutes the city's numbers. As a direct example, in this study, the area of Page Mill and Hansen is getting worse. In the city's version, traffic is much less. In fact, daily volume is down over 30%.

Anyone who has been on the roads of Palo Alto knows there's no way traffic is decreasing. My bigger question is what is city staff actually doing? Did the study ever get re-done? Interestingly, the study that showed that traffic was decreasing was in a package of materials that was to be used as part of the Comprehensive Plan which is used when the city decides if they have room for more development. A decrease in traffic numbers would tell the city that Palo Alto can accomodate more growth. I think most of us know that's not the case, especially given this recent traffic data.

I'm more worried about the fact that the city seems to publish data that show what they want it to show.

To me it does seems like traffic is a bit less in Palo Alto than it used to be.
Not hugely, but from MV to MP on Middlefield seems to go faster these days than last century.
Same from 101 to El Camino using virtually any path ... except maybe University.
That's just my gut feeling. I remember sitting in traffic for long long stretches at a time in Palo Alto traffic.
I think El Camino is roughly the same as it always was, but it does seem to move a bit faster from Embarcadero to University.
The really horrible times were when Stanford would have a game, and if you did not know about it and got caught in it, that was hell. That's just what it seems like to me who has lived here since 1970.

As Suspicious posted in another topic, the City Hall "upgrade" one I think, Mr. Rodruquez is too busy working on his 2 traffic-related startups to be bothered with the likes of the people who pay his salary, pension and benefits, hence his lack of response to our concerns, phone calls and emails.

Where are his managers?

Silly me. The city council just voted to hold their meetings on the salaries of top "managers" like him behind closed doors! FEH!

When I first started working near it, some people referred to the Page Mill-Oregon underpass as the Four-Block Freeway.

@ Midtown. A better way to reduce congestion than limiting each home to ONE car would be to limit each business to one parking place and have people use transit, cabs, human-powered transport, etc.

No! If they make ORegon and Page Mill more efficient caltrans will surely add the light at the 280 page mill off ramp, decreasing the value of my $20 million dollar home.

Btw. The traffic studies have been proven to be wildly inaccurate.

Within the context of PA's Climate Action Plan Update, expensive, auto-centered projects that "induce demand" for even more car travel (new US expressway capacity typically fills up again within 5 years) should be carefully evaluated. At first glance, such projects seem misaligned with adopted city climate policy.

Demand reduction is often a more cost-effective approach. Stanford has combined carrots and sticks, producing dramatic reduction in car trips. A politically viable variant for Stanford Research Park (25,000 jobs) could be charging single occupancy vehicle commuters $2 per day to park at SRP and using that money to incent commuters to carpool, bike, and take transit. The literature shows 23% commute mode shift. That's 11,000 fewer SRP commute trips per day, with large climate and taxpayer benefits. Seems like an alternative worth pursuing.

Details:
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One of the bright spots driving north/south in PA has been the relative simplicity of Alma. There are a few stop lights, but just a few, so it's pretty quick. Recently, a light was added at a new development just north of E. Meadow. The negative impact to flow on Alma has been obvious, with little apparent benefit.

Adding two lights at Oregon/Page Mill, I think, will have the same effect -- some benefit for Oregon/Page Mill at a large cost to the simplicity, and flow, of Alma. There are some simple changes that could be made instead, as follows:

Southbound Alma to westbound Oregon/Page Mill. The ramp is fine, but it scares people because sightlines at the stop sign at the bottom are difficult. People are pointed downhill, in mid-turn, and in order to merge need to judge the traffic coming from the east, also coming downhill and around a curve, and at a tricky angle. An unused, flat, wide space exists in the underpass that the original designer probably intended as the place from which this merge would occur, but it can't be used this way because it isn't marked. By moving the stop sign down to the beginning of this flat space, and adding appropriate markings that make it clear how the space is to be used, the sight lines would be more natural, and this transition would be better for drivers on both roads.

Westbound Oregon/Page Mill to northbound Alma. Again, sight lines are difficult with the stop sign where it is. There's also an unused wide space here, from which it's easier to see and be seen. Realignment of the sidewalk would give more room to do this.

Westbound Oregon/Page Mill to southbound Alma. The ramp is fine except that the merge happens right at the end of the uphill part, when people aren't up to speed. By lengthening the lane enough so that people can be at-speed before merging, the merge would be smoother. At the evening commute, when Alma is full, the longer lane would provide more of a buffer to get cars out of the underpass.

Eastbound Oregon/Page Mill to southbound Alma: This is probably the most frightening transition at this intersection, requiring a driver to cross two lanes of northbound traffic in order to merge directly into a southbound lane. In my experience, not many people take this turn. It really isn't an efficient way to get to the places most people go. Unless accident data say otherwise, it may not need fixing.

The other transitions at the intersection are ok as they are. There are, however, opportunities for better paving, striping, signage, and for inducements to Alma drivers to slow down a little through this zone, all of which would make it safer.

If the County thinks the proposed solution is needed, Palo Alto should insist on simulations that
a) identify the projected sources of increased traffic;
b) show how the reconfiguration will work for both roads; and
c) quantify all the impacts, positive and negative.

FOR GOODNESS SAKE - PLEASE QUIT COMPARING STANFORD, A UNIVERSITY CAMPUS, WITH PALO ALTO, A CITY, FOR PURPOSES OF ANALYZING TRAFFIC.

@Mike, did you mix up east vs westbound on Oregon? Just trying to visualize your observations. Agree that Alma is a wonderful through-route. Sort of wondering whether the proposed Alma signals at Oregon would ever need to go red for southbound Alma. Could two of the three proposed southbound lanes be unsignaled? The same could have been done with that silly new signalized T-intersection north of Meadow. But I guess it's more safe to bring everyone to a dead-stop.

@CPA, not sure what comparisons you found objectionable, but Stanford in the context of Research Park commuters and Regional Medical Center commuters is much more than just a University Campus.

@musical: Yes, sorry, I did say "eastbound Oregon/Page Mill" when I meant "westbound", and vice versa.

[Post removed.]

musical - scale, i.e. scaling up, is the problem in trying to design a computer on a chip, or traffic patterns in a city, the growth of a company, the functional blocks of a website, etc.

Stanford is a small microcosm of a city, it is not a city, it is not Palo Alto. There are many dimensions of difference like the unified nature of Stanford centered around the University, the difference in political system, ownership, layout, commercial and social services, etc.

I'm just making a point that what might or might not work for little Stanford might not or might work for larger Palo Alto, and to be cognizant of that when Stanford is offered as a model for Palo Alto.