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Beware the coming Real Estate Bubble Burst

Original post made by chaz on Mar 17, 2013

Palo ALto prices are up 36 percent on last year.

Beware the bubble.

Most of the pressure is coming from Chinese Money. Hot money is fleeing Chinas real estate bubble for something more secure. Its flooded into Toronto, Vancouver, Vegas, anywhere in California, particularly places with good public schools and universities.

However beware. The rush to purchase may push these prices higher, and they will stay high so long as the bubble continues pushed higher and higher. But at the end of the day prices can only be sustained by the local economy, and taking Palo Alto, that would be lower than they are now. Scarcity aside, it is way better to rent in Palo Alto than buy, so that prices will soon come down.

Prices in Vancouver is starting to tumble down, off 11 percent from last year as the Chinese moved down the coast to places like Palo Alto

This is a huge issue, but some silly liberal philosophy means that we are not allowed to talk about it! We are supposed to welcome all immigrants and not mention the destabilizing influence of hot mony parked in our real estate.

Comments (62)

Posted by Chris Zaharias, a resident of Crescent Park
on Mar 17, 2013 at 12:04 pm

I always salute those who bring up this issue, and shortly thereafter people will come out of the woodwork to call me a bigot, a racist, all manner of names. I do think the PA real estate market is driven by *both* the situation you describe *and* our FB/Goog situation, though, so it's a confluence of factors that makes renting a better deal right now.

Generally it is financially preferable to buy when the ratio of home price to annual rent is <15. Today it's ~35 in PA.


Posted by Jilly J, a resident of Meadow Park
on Mar 17, 2013 at 1:31 pm

When was the last time the ratio was <15 in PA?


Posted by Grover, a resident of Adobe-Meadows
on Mar 17, 2013 at 2:30 pm

A lot of the Chinese immigrant families I know from my children's school are ones where both parents both have advanced degrees in engineering or computer science and both work full-time professions. Many live in the more lower-priced housing, like townhouses, condos, or smaller detached houses.

When you have two hardworking parents with such academic qualifications working at technical jobs in Silicon Valley, many will be able to eventually save up enough to buy in Palo Alto, and that appears to what these families have done. I think couples of any race would be capable of that if they had similar credentials, but it just so happens that the mainland Chinese who make it over here are more likely to have them.

But of course, posters like "chaz" purposely ignore this reality and prefer to invoke the shameful American tradition of "yellow peril" hysteria, accusing Asian immigrants of being part of some massive communist Chinese conspiracy to rob their countries and take away land from real (that usually means "white") Americans. It's pretty surprising that some people living in such a cosmopolitan, progressive area as this still think like it's the 1940s. Next thing you know they'll be calling the Chinese Americans spies and wanting to put them in internment camps.






Posted by jake, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 17, 2013 at 3:47 pm

Chaez, They make you believe it! REIT fund is at all time high and is loaded up with CASH. Hope you know by now who is buying up the real estates these days!
Chris, When was the last time the ratio was <15 in PA?


Posted by Not an issue, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 17, 2013 at 4:56 pm

Well, Chris, if the shoe fits.......
Of curse we have to cut you some slack considering your recent " despoiling"..
By the what happened with your plan to have mandatory occupancy laws in place n palo alto-- that may scare away the Chinese investors you are so afraid of.


Posted by Its bit ab accudebt, a resident of Meadow Park
on Mar 17, 2013 at 5:24 pm

One of our major real estate brokers prides himself with articles in the weekend paper that he solicits Asian buyers.
Also I saw his TV ads on Channel 8, the Japanese language station.


Posted by Riding school instructor, a resident of Los Altos Hills
on Mar 17, 2013 at 6:40 pm

I do not know if they are merely pulling my leg or just plain being dishonest, but the parents of some of my Chinese students have told me that they work six months of the year in China and spend much time on the road, leaving wife and children in the US. So why not stay in China? These same people complain about lousy US wages, vacations, medical care costs, housing costs, and poor education.

The real clincher came a couple of years ago when one Chinese girl came weeping to me because, 1) her mother was kicking her out because she got a B on a math test, and 2) she just found out that her father had another wife and kids in China and expected the two wives to send gifts to each other. It really annoyed her to find out that her father expected far, far less of his kids in China and did not pressure them as much as he pressured his "American" kids.

What on earth is up with that? Why not just go back to China where you will not have to work so hard or be spread so thin, and where rent is only $40/ month or so??????
Obviously, Daddy has too much money if he can support two families and two non-working wives


Posted by Not an issue, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 17, 2013 at 7:04 pm

Riding school instructor --they were both pulling your leg. In fact, I recently met the CEO of a leading foreign company and he told me that the stories you are telling are well known urban myths. Of course some people have issues with the chinese because they are not white and enjoy spreading stories. A renowned medical doctor told me that that happens when you have ankylosing spondylitis.


Posted by Realist, a resident of Green Acres
on Mar 17, 2013 at 9:13 pm

Don't get too excited about "prices rising 36%" from a year prior. One number does not tell the whole story. Nor does a set of a few numbers... Take this overview of PA by Trulia, for example: Web Link

In it, you can see that the median sale price is up 69% from a year prior. SIXTY NINE PERCENT?! Some schmucks who bought they house a couple years ago for 1mln are thinking they can sell their place for 1.7mln! Not so fast... What this number does not say is what KIND of houses were sold last year compared to this year... Last year's sold houses were lower-end (not extremely low end, of course, but not nearly as good as the ones being sold recently). Average price per square foot of home is a little more reasonable at 33%. But again this is not telling us the whole story, since the houses being sold recently are on larger lots than those sold last year. And, as we all know quite well, the LAND value in this area is often more significant than the value of the dwelling.

So if you bought a home for 1mln a year or two ago, what is it worth now? I don't know. But you certainly can't just look at some generic # and apply it directly to your property.


Posted by c, a resident of Adobe-Meadows
on Mar 17, 2013 at 10:10 pm

The issue is not the two hard working parents, of whatever ethnicity, saving money to put their kids through school. Welcome to those folks. The issue is the monster housing bubble in China, propped up by crazy central planning, which has produced ghost cities, and an exodus of hot money to our shores. These Chinese nationals, here on visas often, dont have jobs here. They have jobs in China. They get their money out of the country because they are scared of the bubble popping there. And yes our schools are better so they do anything to get their kids through our schools - including bending the rules in ways that our culture does not condone.

So you can argue whether its racist or not, but I am saying that its dangerous for our economy. What goes up - not linked to the local economy - must come down. I know of a family who put their grandparents and a teenage daughter in a one bedroom apartment in the Redwoods while the girl went through Gunn. And another who left the mother here while Dad was in China and who report one child a failure because he didnt get into UCs. The poor kids are dealing with language issues and impossible pressure to succeed and send each other test answers, and whatever to succeed.

The problem really is what happens when these people stop coming, as they have in Vancouver. Then we will experience the popping of another bubble - independent of what is now fairly stable companies - Google, Apple etc, which are no longer growing exponentially. Steady income, astronomical housing prices, and the repatriation of capital, and the kids who have graduated from our universities - back to China could be ugly for our economy, let alone unfair for the kids who were squeezed out of a spot in the UCs.


Posted by c, a resident of Adobe-Meadows
on Mar 17, 2013 at 10:40 pm

Real estate in China is 3 times GDP.
30 percent of Chinese investors are looking to invest overseas.

That means the entire GDP of China is buying real estate, and focussing it upon certain markets in the US, particularly Palo Alto.

This is an influx of cash that will only stop when the music stops and the Chinese bubble bursts. Until then prices will keep on going up. Our market is linked to theirs.


Posted by jake, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 17, 2013 at 10:49 pm

C, UC admits more foreign, out-of-state students. It's an old news.
Bubbles are always formed over time. These days DOM is less than 2 weeks..meaning that you can sell any junks to the market. Why stay around if I were you!


Posted by Riding school Instructor, a resident of Los Altos Hills
on Mar 18, 2013 at 12:22 pm

Not an issue: Huh????

See also, "Palo Alto Racist Place", by wu t

BTW, my best friend since elementary school is nisei Japanese.


Posted by Not an issue, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 18, 2013 at 5:52 pm

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]


Posted by chaz, a resident of College Terrace
on Mar 18, 2013 at 6:06 pm

We have to ask ourselves.
Is it good that a large amount of money is being injected into our local real estate market, driving prices through the roof, a good thing, when the new owners dont live in the country, have jobs in China, and are going to have to sell if the bubble bursts in China. Is it good that our economy is being linked to the Chinese economy through our real estate.

We also have to ask ourselves. Is the intention of the public school system here to educate the children of Chinese nationals, who are here on visas only by virtue of their pumping millions into real estate to "park" their money. These children take the great school education, crowd out the local kids in the UCs, are utterly ruthless when it comes to academic success, take up the spots of 5 th generation Californians, so there is no room for them, and then leave to make money back in China or elswhere?

I mean whats in it for the local residents? No more spots in the UCs and bubble real estate prices?

This is not a good deal for Californians, and yet they are too narrow minded "liberal" to say this stinks. Its not a matter of ethnicity, its a matter of linking our real estate market to a bubble in China, to welcome people from a country with no human rights to fill up our schools and universities, and then wave them good by as they take the education and go.


Posted by Not an issue, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 18, 2013 at 6:16 pm

How many foreign postdoctoral fellows come to Stanford, from all overvthe years ,for a few years and their kids go to our schools. What about all the visiting faculty that do the same? How about workers that come to,local companies for a limited time and their kids go to our schools.
Seems that china bashing has become a local sport n palo alto. [Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]


Posted by Grover, a resident of Adobe-Meadows
on Mar 18, 2013 at 9:23 pm

chaz, in my previous post I pointed out that the mainland Chinese immigrants I've met at our elementary school here are not absentee beneficiaries of Chinese corruption but just hardworking and highly-educated technical professionals.

If you'd actually stop to talk to the Chinese immigrants you meet, you'd discover that the vast majority fit the profile I've described here. I'm sure there are some who fit your description of absentee beneficiaries of hot PRC money, but you are unfairly and mistakenly painting the whole group with this brush.

And what's this outrage about "5th generation Californians" being displaced by recent immigrants? Does a "5th generation" Californian have some God-given right to live in Palo Alto that mere 1st, 2nd, or 3rd generation Californians don't have? What a coincidence that 5th generation Californians would be close to 100% white.

You're simply spouting thinly-veiled racism. "All the Chinese immigrants here are corrupt absentee manipulators of the China real estate bubble and are stealing our land" sounds a lot like the rhetoric used against Jews in the 1930s, Chinese railroad workers in the 19th century, Vietnamese boat people in the 1980s.

It's disturbing how much anti-Asian vitriol rears its head on these boards. I hope this represents the feelings of just a small minority of malcontents in this town, because we deserve better than this.






Posted by CrescentParkAnon., a resident of Crescent Park
on Mar 18, 2013 at 9:50 pm

> You're simply spouting thinly-veiled racism.

This is the knee-jerk reaction to any mention or something that might have a racial component to it. It's possible there is more to it, and it is possible there is a racist or xenophobic element as well, but I think a lot of Americans, Palo Altans, don't like to lose our culture or our neighborhoods and that is a legitimate feeling, though racism is not a valid response, it is also not a valid blanket accusation.


Posted by common sense, a resident of Midtown
on Mar 18, 2013 at 10:58 pm

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]


Posted by chaz, a resident of College Terrace
on Mar 18, 2013 at 11:03 pm

OK, so lets pretend for a moment that these are not Chinese they are Europeans. So these Europeans come to Palo Alto, push their kids hard, cheat, and coach so that, the lets say Asian Americans who are deeply involved in the community and who have a less ruthless attitude to education, are squeezed out of the UCs. These Europeans buy up all the real estate at absurdly high prices, hang out only in groups of these other Europeans speaking their own language, leave kids and grandma here for the education but return to, lets pretend Europe, where they make all their money but which is in a huge real estate bubble and is about to collapse bringing down Palo Alto with it.

Take race out of the picture and comment on it from an educational and economic point of view. How is this good? These are not immigrants. They are not invested in the local community. They are using it to park money and suck up all the free education they can get.

I am writing down what everyone is saying in private.


Posted by Chaz, a resident of College Terrace
on Mar 18, 2013 at 11:11 pm


OK, so lets pretend for a moment that these are not Chinese they are Europeans. So these Europeans come to Palo Alto, push their kids hard, cheat, and coach so that, the lets say AFRICAN Americans who are deeply involved in the community and who have a less ruthless attitude to education, are squeezed out of the universities. These Europeans buy up all the real estate at absurdly high prices, hang out only in groups of these other Europeans speaking their own language, leave kids and grandma here for the education but return to, lets pretend Europe, where they make all their money but which is in a huge real estate bubble and is about to collapse bringing down Palo Alto with it.

So put race back in the picture, change the groups around, do what you will with the race card, but its still a bad deal economically and educationally for the local community.


Posted by Grover, a resident of Adobe-Meadows
on Mar 19, 2013 at 7:35 am

CrescentParkAnon, what do you mean by "our culture" and "our neighborhoods"? Just who do you mean by "our"? You can say it's just a "knee jerk reaction" to say that racial bias is at work here, but it sure sounds like it from you're saying. "Our culture" and "our neighborhoods"...that's the exact argument the old South used to justify Jim Crow.

You and your buddies do not have any exclusive priority to live in Palo Alto or anywhere else in the US. This country is changing, and it's no longer 90% white. People like you seem to have a problem with this. I guess they end up moving to Idaho or something.


Posted by Grover, a resident of Adobe-Meadows
on Mar 19, 2013 at 7:39 am

Chaz, it sounds like you yourself probably only "hang out in groups" of people like yourself speaking your "own language". Because if you actually took the time to meet some of the people you criticize so much and get to know them, you'd realize that your characterization of them if off base.

And no, I don't believe that if we had lots of blonde haired, blue eyed, hardworking Swedes moving to Palo Alto you would be complaining.


Posted by NotARentor, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 19, 2013 at 8:41 am

Chaz, Why you ignore the employees from Stanford, Facebook, Google, Apple, Oracle, VMware as buyers in the market. You keep targeting the 1%(???) people made up the market. If you have data for last month, year, please show it to all of us! Cause we don't trust the stories from Agent A,B,C. How dare you believe that foreigner pushing up the US market? Think TWICE.. Do you know who owns the biggest pile of REIT fund? The answer is sooooo obvious! Your guess work is all wrong my friend!!!


Posted by CrescentParkAnon., a resident of Crescent Park
on Mar 19, 2013 at 10:29 am

> Posted by Grover, a resident of the Adobe-Meadows neighborhood, 2 hours ago
> CrescentParkAnon, what do you mean by "our culture" and "our neighborhoods"?

I would think it would be obvious, and of course, it is, but you have to try to make it sound racist by playing that absurdly equal idea that all cultures have equal rights everywhere theoretical perfection ... it just does not exist anywhere.

I really wonder if you are either a non-American or non-Palo Altan with animus towards same, or if you are actually have any experience with any minorities at all?

For example, in real life when I was going to through college and working I used to go to a laundramat where there were a lot of Mexican Americans working and as customers. I would spark up conversations and got to know the regulars, not all Latinos by the way. Almost to a one at some point in the conversation they would express their feeling that Mexico was going to take back over California. I would just ignore this, but I did note it. A couple of time I probably asked how they thought CA or the US would be better if it was more like Mexico, but the point is, people think like this, they resonate with their cultures, and they take it wherever they go and there's good and bad to that.

If you talk to Asians, and this is mostly with Chinese, and that includes Chinese-Vietnamese, Chinese-Phillipinos, Chinese-American and Chinese-(other) some of them actually do happen to be very racist. Not all, and there are certainly American racists as well, but assuming this is all about equal and only comes out when a group has the power to abuse their numbers, and many have noted this is a pattern with Muslims, other groups do change the nature of places they move to. I have had a lot of experience with people from other cultures and they can be as advanced as Americans like to think they are, and they can also be just as racist, sexist, homophobic or good-ole-boyish as American know that some of us can be.

There are differences between people in values, habits, politeness, hygiene, etc.

If it was not obvious, I'm saying that I, as an American, and Palo Altan since 1969, and coming from the American South have always appreciated Palo Alto and its community for its attempts to be fair to all, political correctness is what people call it when they think it has been overdone. I think it is something that has mostly taken hold in California, and despite some over-exuberant issues it is a very good thing. That said, it can be used and abused to the detriment of the system itself. I think most people, and the vast majority of children when they see and grow up in a place that promotes tolerance sees that it is the better way, but tolerance can be abused as well.

I like to meet and know foreign people. I've always had an interest and affinity for different ways of thinking, but I have had a respect and pride for what Americans do right, and our ability to be eclectic and adopt things from other cultures that make sense. Food, gardening, taking one's shoes off before they go inside, little things that add to quality of like that were not necessarily invented here.

I think the anxiety is that people who have lived here all their lives and like it the way it is do not like to see things change, and sometimes for good reason.

I expect you know exactly what I mean and were looking to 1) accuse me of racism, 2) give me the runaround forcing me to spend a lot of time writing a response to something you probably did not even think about, and 3) hoping in doing that I would put my foot in my ideas and you could again take the cheap shot and impose upon my good nature to accuse of being somehow immoral or unfair to people in a way you could discount.

I think we need a way to discuss issues like this without it turning into an absurdity, without people's feelings being called incorrect or immoral, and in a way where the real issues come out, because people do sometimes have racist behaviors and maybe they do not even realize it or when it is talked about they can see that more clearly.

What we do not need is these knee-jerk attacks on anything that might possible be misconstrued as racist by people who do not mean well or who are not trying to be constructive. Anyway, hope I did not step in anything or on anyone's toes, at the very least everyone should have the right to their feelings and to express them. These are just words and if meant to deliberately hurt even negative feelings can lead to something constructive if only the recognition that we all have such feelings at one time or another.


Posted by Chaz, a resident of College Terrace
on Mar 19, 2013 at 11:24 am

I think its wise here not to call these folks "Asian".

Call them from the PRC Peoples Republic of China, a group completely separate from folks who are working and living and contributing to the local community. The problem is that locals in America are so racially sensitized that any observation of an undesirable economic development becomes a tired old racial namecalling.

So this is from "zero hedgefund" quoting the UK's "Telegraph" newspaper which is about as disreputable as the New York Times:

as you want a reference.

From Corrupt Chinese Politicians are Buying Billions in U.S. Real Estate.


"Many of us spent much of 2012 confused about how the U.S. real estate market was improving within the context of a broke and unemployed citizenry. Well as time has passed the answers to our questions have been revealed. The criminals are piling in. I first explained a couple of weeks ago how the financial oligarchs in the United States are currently in a bidding war to become America's slumlords in my post: America Meet Your New Slumlord: Wall Street.

Now we also discover that part of the bid to U.S. real estate has come from another criminal class. In this case, we are talking about corrupt Chinese officials who are pulling their ill gotten gains from their homeland and desperately placing it in real estate all over the globe. From The Telegraph:

As China's new leaders intensify a campaign to root out corruption, thousands of Communist party officials have been panicked into a fire sale of their illicit properties while billions of pounds have been smuggled overseas.

It said the volume of deals had intensified by "a hundred times" after Xi Jinping, the incoming Chinese president, warned that corruption could kill the Party and put one of the country's most vigorous and resolute politicians, Wang Qishan, in charge of stamping out graft.

It also claimed that an astonishing $1 trillion (£630 billion), equivalent to 40 per cent of Britain's annual GDP, had been smuggled out of China illegally in 2012.

In the United States, the National Association of Realtors said that more than $7 billion of properties had been bought by Chinese in the US last year. Some high-end homes are now specifically built for rich Chinese with ponds for koi carp and a second kitchen for pungent cooking.
I
guess word has gone out globally that the U.S. is open for business as far as the global criminal class is concerned. They can rest assured knowing they will never face repercussions in this lawless land. At least that is what they think. What we must do is never forget who is buying all of these properties"

So can we not recognize what is going on without a stupid name calling about racism. It is the very racists who couch everything in racist terms.

This is an economic and political issue. It is an issue about the use of our community for money laundering from the PRC.

Please forget the racial overtones. This is not about "Asians" or "Mexicans" or "Whites". Its about the international criminal class using Palo Alto to park money, link us to the PRC housing bubble, and game our schools for the benefit of their kids.

Many people say and think exactly this, however knee jerk racist name calling is preventing us from even discussing it, let alone doing something about it.


Posted by Chaz, a resident of College Terrace
on Mar 19, 2013 at 11:37 am

[Post removed due to possible copyright infringement]


Posted by What is the point?, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Mar 19, 2013 at 11:58 am

The point that everyone is missing is what these people are doing to our economy, which is precarious enough without them. They are far more than 1% of the market! Go to any open house and see who the majority of attendees are. The are wrecking our economy in order to make themselves all the more wealthy!

It is the new "golden rule": He who has the gold makes the rules....

@not an issue: do you ever post anything that is not accusatory or nasty? It seems you do have issues with freedom of speech.


Posted by NotARentor, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 19, 2013 at 12:22 pm

Chaz, You're keep posting something not related to the Palo Alto local market. People here are very intellectual..


Posted by Chinese Born in America, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Mar 19, 2013 at 12:23 pm

Per Chaz's posting: "I think its wise here not to call these folks "Asian".

Call them from the PRC Peoples Republic of China, a group completely separate from folks who are working and living and contributing to the local community. The problem is that locals in America are so racially sensitized that any observation of an undesirable economic development becomes a tired old racial namecalling."

-------------------------------------

THANK YOU. "Asian" also refers to E. Indians, and they are immigrating here in droves too.

I was born here and am so tired of people confusing me with these immigrant Chinese who reflect poorly on other Asians with their unethical behavior. While I have friends who are white, Chinese-Americans, Chinese immigrants, E. Indian immigrants, I am just as "American" as the white majority due to my upbringing in Silicon Valley. It proves that people are shallow at heart. Don't hate ME.


Posted by NotARentor, a resident of College Terrace
on Mar 19, 2013 at 12:25 pm

Asian love buying houses and American love cars. It's a Cultural Thing. I don't see a problem here!


Posted by Not an issue, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 19, 2013 at 2:22 pm

On the contrary, what is the point, it seems it is you that has issues with free speech, since you have problems with what I say.
In general these topics have become forums for bashing the Chinese. Too bad. Not sure what can be said about someone who complains while talking about " our" city and " our" neighborhood.


Posted by Doolittle, a resident of Midtown
on Mar 19, 2013 at 6:48 pm

@Not an issue: You should not be revealing people's names online. It could get PA Online and you in deep trouble.


Posted by Not an issue, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 19, 2013 at 6:57 pm

Doolittle-- are you referring to the post that was deleted after being up for almost 24 hours? I did not use anyone's full name-- but how do you know that those are not some of my other online identities?
Are names copyrighted? How could I and the online be in trouble? Does that mean that pa online has to check every name that's used to make sure it is not revealing someone's name?
Please clarify your comment.


Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of Duveneck/St. Francis
on Mar 19, 2013 at 7:25 pm

I started reading this thread because a few weeks ago, we received a flyer from a real-estate agent looking for homes for sale that boasted in the flyer that 75 percent of her buyers were Asian. I was a bit stunned because I thought talking about the race of would-be buyers was kind of verboten under various fair-housing laws. I also didn't see why I, as a would-be seller, would care. (As long as the money's the right color and legal tender . . .)

But this discussion makes matters a little clearer--instead of IPO money driving up the market, we're now supposed to have money from China driving it up.

That all said, I suspect the long-term effect in Palo Alto will be limited. We have limited housing stock and someone once posted here that something like 30 percent of the houses here had paid-off mortgages. It's not a city where it's easy for someone to come and, say, buy a block's worth of properties. There's so little for sale that I suspect a lot of the money goes elsewhere--southern California, other parts of the Bay Area. (For a more international perspective, there's an interesting story in Vanity Fair about pricey London real estate being bought up by plutocrats from a number of resource-rich countries.)

Some people (rrrreal Amurricans) will make money from this. Others, the would-be buyers, are in a bind as this sort of thing makes it hard to compete. However, I don't think we're at the crazy levels of the dot-com boom when suddenly "nice" houses were getting a million over asking price. (Though we may get there.)

The whole UC foreign-student thing, on the other hand, is *unfair*--the UCs have essentially sought out foreign and out-of-state students because those students pay higher tuition and helps the UCs make up for state budget shortfalls. I get the logic, but it *is* counter to the mission of the UCs which is to offer a reasonaly priced higher education to California students.


Posted by Bo Xilai, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Mar 19, 2013 at 7:47 pm

I may have mis-spelled it, being too busy at the moment to look it up, but there are super wealthy mainland China folks - like Bo Xilai sic - perhaps) and the folks in charge of their vaunted highspeed rail and etc. who are undoubtedly corrupt, have made a super amount of money, AND want to get it out of China. Regular citizens in China were upset about the highspeed rail coverup and other appalling, coirrupt, dangerous ways of conducting government and business in China. One just wonders about those with a ton of money and how it was "earned." There has been a lot of commercial and military theft of IP, espionage, and for God's sake - it is a Communist country! I am concerned about "investment" from a country where the financial records are considered unreliable and who knows how someone has made a bundle. I don't mean the average working person in China.
Need I even mention the terrible record on human rights -- oh, I guess we sweep that one under the rug. Tibetans and Uigers. Political dissidents, some of them regular, concerned Chinese people.
Remember when there was a female Tibetan student at Stanford a couple of years ago and the news media reported she had been hacked by red China.
This has nothing to do with the fine people from HK and Taiwan.


Posted by Chairman Mao, a resident of College Terrace
on Mar 20, 2013 at 8:00 am

You are right, Bo. Considering that an awful lot of hacking is done by mainland China, an awful lot of spying is done by them, and human rights are trampled by them every day.....why are we letting so many of them into our country, and often giving them high security clearances?? Especially when they have no intention of ever becoming citizens? We have a neighbor whose parents have been here 30 years, and he and his parents have yet to become citizens.

The newly appointed head of SLAC is mainland Chinese, no citizenship, high security clearance. The people recently busted at NASA were mostly mainland Chinese, no citizenship, high security clearances. Most of the people busted at Lockheed in the last 20 years, ditto. Why do we keep permitting this?

To make matters worse, when they enter the country, they are never checked for signs of illness, although their airports check everyone for signs of illness at entry.


Posted by People with issues, a resident of Old Palo Alto
on Mar 20, 2013 at 8:19 am

Are you serious Chairman Mao? What a narrow minded diatribe

"why are we letting so many of them into our country, and often giving them high security clearances?? "
Who is "them"?? are you painting all chinese with one brush. Those that are given high security clearances are vetted appropriately.

" We have a neighbor whose parents have been here 30 years, and he and his parents have yet to become citizens."
Do you interrogate your neighbors as to their citizenship?
I have neighbors that came from China and are citizens.

"The newly appointed head of SLAC is mainland Chinese, no citizenship, high security clearance. "
You need to check your facts.Chi-­Chang Kao is Taiwanese. How do you know what his citizenship is? And if he is not a citizen he has been thoroughly vetted.

" The people recently busted at NASA were mostly mainland Chinese, no citizenship, high security clearances."
What people recently busted at NASA???? These were claims made by a republican congressman from Virginia. Now you are resorting to outright lies

" Most of the people busted at Lockheed in the last 20 years, ditto."
What people busted at Lockheed?? Careto provide some proof for any of your wild claims??

" To make matters worse, when they enter the country, they are never checked for signs of illness, although their airports check everyone for signs of illness at entry."
What a revolting comment!!!! Care to back that claim up with some facts????


Posted by Northam, a resident of Crescent Park
on Mar 20, 2013 at 9:24 am

This conversation must continue.

It is just because we are such an intellectual community that there are enough post-racial people, we are all mixed blood, not to turn this into a cliche ridden discussion about race.

What this is about is an large amount of cash, much smuggled from mainland China, buying up Palo Alto real estate at inflated prices, and cheating the educational system.

We either dont talk about it because some misguided folks will call us racist, or we say that everyone is mixed race and only some are criminals. This is about not standing around with our mouths shut as our community becomes a place for international Chinese criminals to launder their money. The Russians did the same thing in Cyprus - and look how that turned out for them. (The Russians are Caucasian - by definition.) This is about inadequate regulation.


Posted by Mary. , a resident of Greenmeadow
on Mar 20, 2013 at 9:44 am

If this does continue you will get a lot of people wanting to sell. I am thinking about it because I dont want these people as my neighbors and I dont want my kids thinking cheating in school is OK. The market will sort this out.


Posted by Grover, a resident of Adobe-Meadows
on Mar 20, 2013 at 11:03 am

Hmm, maybe it's time to stop reading this thread. It's really descending into the lunatic fringe.

So the kids of Chinese immigrants in Palo Alto all cheat on their tests, their money comes from criminal activity in China, they commit espionage against the US government, and they are communists...do you realize how crazy you all sound?

You all seem to be ignoring my observation that the overwhelming majority of Chinese immigrants are well-educated technical professionals who landed good jobs at US tech firms. Most of the ones I've met live here quite modestly and could only afford it after saving for years to buy the less expensive houses/condos here in town.

Again, you are unfairly painting this group with some hysterical, hyperbolic stereotype that fits a very small proportion of this group. I can't believe the poster who talked about Bo Xilai as evidence of how horrible the Chinese in Palo Alto are. The US created Bernie Madoff, Adam Lanza, and John Wayne Gacey, but that doesn't mean all Americans are evil.

It's pretty clear from the content of their posts that many contributors here belong to an older generation, so it's perhaps a bit more understandable why they think the way they do. But wow, it's still quite incredible to read some of this stuff.



Posted by CrescentParkAnon., a resident of Crescent Park
on Mar 20, 2013 at 11:11 am

> Grover, a resident of the Adobe-Meadows neighborhood said:
> ... well-educated technical professionals ... at US tech firms. ...

Maybe the lunatic fringe ought to broaden their sites to this whole group because they seem to be a problem all over the country, if not the world.

At least in China they know how to handle corruption when they can find it ... bang! Here we just give wag a finger at them and give them raises.

;-)


Posted by Chairman Mao Also Said, a resident of another community
on Mar 20, 2013 at 11:40 am

"Beware the sugar-coated bullets of the bourgeoisie."


Posted by WTF, a resident of College Terrace
on Mar 20, 2013 at 1:17 pm

Mainland Chinese come here, invest money, and then pressure governments to make policy in their favor. They threaten to withdraw their money, so they get their way.

Since when does a democratic country kowtow to the wishes of a minority? Is this becoming a dictatorship? If so, it will not be a benign one like Singapore (where I have lived).


Posted by Bo Xilai, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Mar 20, 2013 at 3:39 pm

Web Link


Posted by jac, a resident of Greater Miranda
on Mar 20, 2013 at 4:54 pm

This conversation has become interesting. The real risk to the US is Plutocratic, Kleptocratic China and those who have scrabbled their way to the top by means that would be odious to most people, let alone a Northern Californian liberal. Its not just here. Chinese money is buying up the nicest places in the free world, only to bring their values and corruption to wherever they go. Its a seismic shift. Its not just Palo Alto. You cant just up and leave. There is no where to go to escape our new leaders. The despotic Chinese. At least in the US we know that this was a result of our greed, our free market ideology, our outsourcing of industry to China, our love of cheap stuff at Walmart. Imagine if you lived in Europe. There the Chinese are buying up at just the same rate in all the nicest places. The Europeans are suffering from Wall Street, and then the Chinese waves of global capital.

When this all shakes out the US will have handed global supremacy to an utterly ruthless kleptocracy, who hacks our systems, can bring down our infrastructure and neuter our ICMs. Meanwhile we will have educated their children at Palo Alto schools and the UCs!


Posted by Not an issue, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 20, 2013 at 4:54 pm

Some f these comments are scary. Not sure if thy come from ignorance or racism. One commentor I recognize from other threads-- always looking for an excuse to bad the Chinese and always has a friend/ neighbor/ heard from a friend to use as an example of how evil the Chinese are. Hopefully these people represent. A minority in our city


Posted by Parent, a resident of Palo Alto High School
on Mar 20, 2013 at 5:38 pm

The somewhat more relevant question that should be asked as a result of this is what is happening to the education of our American born (regardless of race) children when our UCs are favoring out of State and international students who pay higher fees than the Californian born graduating high school seniors?

We have a population that is growing, but our number of UC places is not keeping pace and the number of acceptances for Californians is becoming a smaller percentage every year.

Californians are increasingly looking at private colleges or out of State as the only place they have a chance of being accepted. This is adding debt to the next generation of Californian born college graduates and that is not even discussing whether or not they will return when they have graduated college.

Is this what we want for our children?

This


Posted by Not an issue, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 20, 2013 at 6:02 pm

Parent -- what about foreign born people that have become citizens? What about people born outside the state that are now residents? Doesn't the UC system guarantee a place to California residents if they are within a certain place in their graduating class?


Posted by It is an issue, a resident of Midtown
on Mar 20, 2013 at 6:09 pm

CHINA is an evil government. It is a dictatorship that is Communist. My mother left a Communist satellite country in the late 70s. Like other people who escaped, she did not believe in Communism. Many of the Chinese from Communist China are not Communists, they are extremely Capitalist. However, they like the get-rich-quick scene they THINK exists here, and are here only to get wealthier while they hope for a big change in government ( overthrow of Communism). Then they will take their money and go home.

As a China-watcher, I learned Mandarin in middle school and high school. I grew up in a predominantly Chinese neighborhood. I understand most of the conversations I overhear in locker rooms, grocery stores, whatever ( unless they are in Cantonese). Wanna know what they think os us? That we are too soft on our children, that we do not use enough physical discipline on them. We smell bad because we drink milk. We are not as intelligent as a race as they are. We are easy to trick and fool. We work for very little money and have health care that is much too expensive. They brag to each other about all the money they have, all the money they are going to make, and what great schools their kids got into because they could pay so much more than American parents. And they think the Japanese are racist, the Koreans stupid, and the Taiwanese lazy. THE END


Posted by Not an issue, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 20, 2013 at 6:26 pm

For all the hysterical pronouncements on this thread (it is an issue, mary! Chairman Mao, horseriding instructor etc) we have no actual proof of their claims. All we have is hearsay, factoids, outright lies, generalizations and a nice pile of BS.
As to the latest claim, it is an issue would have us believe that all the Chinese talk about is how terrible we are! Really?
Thanks for an amusing diatribe


Posted by Outside Observer, a resident of another community
on Mar 20, 2013 at 8:27 pm

@it's an issue,

I agree with your "China-Watcher" points 100%. That has been my experience too.

However, here is where we differ. I agree with their assessment. That too has has been my experience.



Posted by musical, a resident of Palo Verde
on Mar 20, 2013 at 9:03 pm

Getting dizzy reading through all this commentary. Seems like a lot of "confirmation bias" going on.

I'll affirm the contested assertion around 14 posts above, ". . . their airports check everyone for signs of illness at entry." Among dozens of countries I've visited, Beijing is the only airport where I've run a gauntlet of infrared scanners to flag anyone with high fever. Understandable in 2009 with the swine flu scare.


Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of Duveneck/St. Francis
on Mar 20, 2013 at 9:28 pm

Not an issue,

I think placement is guaranteed to the top 4 percent of a graduating class--may be wrong, it's been a long time since I looked at this stuff. That may be for Berkeley and UCLA.

My understanding is that a decent student who has the qualifying classes can get into a UC, just not the prestigious ones.

It takes a couple of years to establish residency and get the residency rate for tuition. That's kind of the crux of the issue--the UCs have upped the percentage of non-resident students because they pay more.

As for the general tone of this thread---ummm, you *do* realize that the United States still has a much larger economy than does China? China's is growing faster than ours, but it's still going to take a while.

When I was a kid the Soviet Union was the big threat. Later on, there was lots of angst over the coming global dominance of Japan. Now it's China and when it crashes (which it will, though I think it will recover--too many people for it not to be a major player), there will be increased muttering about India.

There are real issues, but they're getting buried in a kind of yellow-peril demonization.

Excuse me while I go get some cow spit for my coffee.


Posted by It is an issue, a resident of Midtown
on Mar 21, 2013 at 1:43 pm

I left out a couple of important points about the mainland Chinese and racism. Although they pull the race card frequently, I have many, many times over the past five years heard them complain about Hispanics and Blacks. They complain openly that these are the only two races who have come to America that have not prospered. (Never mind that the blacks and many Hispanics did not come here willingly). [Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

My husband, a stock analyst, has been approached several times in the last five years by Chinese nationals wanting "insider information". He has informed them that it would mean serious jail time as it is a felony. They seem to think they would be exempt somehow. Last year, he showed me an article in the Chronicle about a Chinese national jailed for insider trading and influence peddling!

So, basically, there are a large number of mainland Chinese here locally who are not very nice, are very racist, and who are criminal. Not every one of them, but a large number. And they seem not to want to be here and seem not to like it here (too foreign, is the complaint). As an immigrant's daughter, I find this strange, that they do not want to be here and that they do not want to mingle, or allow their children to mingle, with Americans. When we lived in Taiwan and Singapore, we experienced no racism problems there.


Posted by CrescentParkAnon., a resident of Crescent Park
on Mar 21, 2013 at 2:06 pm

Well, it could be said that we are awash with corruption from all over ... the only corruption that we might have some control over is the corruption that comes in from overseas, the corruption that is already here seems to have taken root.

I think it's normal for people who come from homogeneous societies to feel insular, often to the point of racism or arrogance. There are few countries on this planet that have much to really be proud of, except for perhaps a few remarkable individuals, yet people seem to like to play these games with themselves and sometimes they get way out of hand.

My only concern is that Americans, or "we" as Americans have tended to model the present and future on the past, that is, that foreign people will eventually melt into the melting pot of our culture and that we will benefit from absorbing parts of other cultures. That meme may be valid or it may be totally erroneous, we really have nothing to base it on but our short cross-section of experience in our own aberrant history. What if we are wrong? And, we have been wrong on so much in America as we look back how the trends of things we have taken for granted have scaled up to the national and international levels. If ever the phrase "past performance is no guarantee of future success" had a meaning it it now.

All of these "trends" are trends that will work themselves out, all the problems we see today will eventually resolve leading to new and interesting problems ... the real problem is that they leave people living now in the wake of all these global cataclysms and uncertainty.

Corporations raise holy hell out any uncertainty they face - in the smallest of tax hikes, loophole closings, or regulations, but we don't seem to accept any expressions of uncertainty for people, never mind that millions of people's pensions have been erased, social security is threatened, their children's futures are threatened, their accustomed ways of life, etc.

Let's just be open and fair. I have to admit that while I think it is good to air these ideas some of the expressions are a bit hard to read though and have seemed to have led to a piling on, despite the fact that I recognize many of the comments made as having some basis in reality. If we are going to have a global world we have to figure out some way to get past this, and make sure that one groups does not get power and try to raise themselves over others unfairly ever again, but people will be people. :-(


Posted by people with issues, a resident of Old Palo Alto
on Mar 21, 2013 at 2:45 pm

it is an issue seems to be following in the footsteps of Chairman MAo by attacking our local chinese.

"Although they pull the race card frequently, I have many, many times over the past five years heard them complain about Hispanics and Blacks"
Who is them?? All the chinese in Palo Alto??? Are you trying to disguise your racism by claiming that they are racist????

"My husband, a stock analyst, has been approached several times in the last five years by Chinese nationals wanting "insider information""
Several times in the last 5 years???? So less than once a year???
And no white americans ever wanted insider stock information, correct??

"Last year, he showed me an article in the Chronicle about a Chinese national jailed for insider trading and influence peddling!"
Checked the Chronicle online and no such article exists. Perhaps it is an issue can produce it for us, since he/she is using to paint all chinese as criminals. And again no white american was ever jailed for insider trading and influence peddling, correct????


"So, basically, there are a large number of mainland Chinese here locally who are not very nice, are very racist, and who are criminal. Not every one of them, but a large number."
A large number?? How large?? Perhaps you can provide these "facts" to us since you are tarring and entire nationality with a broad brush.
I cannot believe that you actually dare to make these bogus statements.
Obviously some chinese are bad, as are some hispanics, some whites, some (insert nationality here), that is human nature. Your claims go beyond criticism. They reek of racism and hatred

"As an immigrant's daughter, I find this strange, that they do not want to be here and that they do not want to mingle, or allow their children to mingle, with Americans."
This claim appears quite often in this forum. Usually by the same person--who once again provides no facts or proof to back up their ridiculous claims. Of course this person thinks that if they say the same thing, but use a different identity, that readers will not recognize that these slanders come from one person.

Fortunately I believe that people like it is an issue is not representative of the residents of Palo Alto. Rather he/she is a deeply troubled person who seems to hate the chinese and who knows what other nationalities they have it in for


Posted by Not an issue, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 21, 2013 at 6:32 pm

Well I do have to admire the tenacity of it is an issue-- spending days, weeks or months identifying mainland chinese and then listening in to their conversations. And then taking the time to report back to us how evil they are!
I hope I am not the only one that finds this posters statements to be ridiculous and entirely u founded.
And I also thought her husband was an economist


Posted by Lullaby and goodnight, a resident of Palo Alto Hills
on Mar 21, 2013 at 6:46 pm

Ho hum, this is getting old. Not an issue, who are you talking about? Are you trying to "out" someone? Have you wondered why your posts are so often deleted? Maybe you teeter on the edge of legality?

Wu T right....Palo Alto big racist place.


Posted by Lullaby and goodnight, a resident of Palo Alto Hills
on Mar 21, 2013 at 6:59 pm

The fact that this thread is now on the second page and people are still fighting about who is racist and who is not means that this has gone on too long. Let us now put it put of its misery.


Posted by Not an issue, a resident of Community Center
on Mar 21, 2013 at 7:16 pm

Lullaby and goodnight? True I cassionally get a post deleted. But often? Really, sounds a bit like it is an issues factoids?
I am just commenting on the similarity of comments in these threads regarding Chinese. Draw your own conclusions. And what am I doing that is illegal?
Please elaborate. Replying to others posts s not illegal. Stating that postings seem to be from the same person is not illegal. Spe ulating as to the identity of the poster is not illegal.
But pray tell what am I doing that " teetering on the edge of legality".
Your comments actually remind me of another poster that tried the same approach to stifle comments that were not in line with his!/ her beliefs.


Posted by Big, a resident of Crescent Park
on Mar 21, 2013 at 10:05 pm

Big is a registered user.

.

Take home points:

Its a global world.
Pure "race" doesnt exist but ethnicity does.
China is almost unique in that it is not multi-cultural.
Large numbers of mainland Chinese with political connections are buying land in Palo Alto.
This is legal in this country but illegal in China. They not allowed to take money out of the country. They are criminals in China but legal here.
These people send their kids to our schools and they do much better than our kids.
That they may be creating a bubble in house prices.
And finally that Chinese are racist but the multicultural coffee colored people of America are not!
I wonder if it is racist to accuse one ethnically distinct group of people as being racist but say that Americans are not racist because we are multicultural and poly-national?


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