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Joe Biden on Iraq

Original post made by Gary, Downtown North, on Aug 23, 2008

Having voted to go in, he then came up with desperate solutions, when the going got tough.

"The surge isn't going to work either tactically or strategically," Biden told the Boston Globe last summer. "Tactically it isn't going to work because ... our guys go in and secure a neighborhood, but because we don't have enough troops, we have to turn it over to the Iraqis, and they can't hold it or won't hold it."

Biden advocated dividing up the country into three parts based on ethnicity, something McCain strongly disagreed with.

"If you did the three different countries, basically what the Biden-Gelb proposal (is) as I understand it, one, you'd be drawing dividing lines in bedrooms in Baghdad because Sunni and Shia are married," McCain said. "The second thing is, the Turks have announced that they will not allow an independent Kurdish state."

( Web Link )

Biden voted against the Reagan defense buildup (the one that helped, immensely, in his winning the cold war); voted against the first Gulf War; voted for the Iraq war.

One wonders: Has this guy a clue in forign policy, when it really counts? Is Obama this clueless?

Comments (33)

 +   Like this comment
Posted by Excuse Me
a resident of Stanford
on Aug 23, 2008 at 1:03 pm


Biden was right.

The surge has been a total failure.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 23, 2008 at 1:25 pm

"The surge has been a total failure."

Excuse, care to explain? This should be an interesting expalnation, since the facts are just the opposite. I am willing to give you a break, becasue you are probably just being absurd for the fun of it.

Since I will vote for McCain, I can only hope that the Dems adopt your absurdity as a plausible argument.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Excuse Me
a resident of Stanford
on Aug 23, 2008 at 1:33 pm


Prove me wrong.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Pete
a resident of Meadow Park
on Aug 23, 2008 at 1:46 pm

It doesn't matter who won or lost, the U.S. is leaving Iraq in 2011. The agreement was worked out and signed off on by Condi Rice. That is the future and it is the future that matters in this election.

Peace will be maintained in Iraq if the Suhnis, Shiite, Kurds etc. can work together, which is very problematical. The whole war has cost the U.S. a great deal money and far too many lives, I'm glad we're leaving. I'm voting for Obama, I trust him to stay out of the messes George W created.


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Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 23, 2008 at 1:52 pm

"Prove me wrong."

I can't prove a negative.

However, before the surge, things were relatively bad; after the surge, things got a lot better, both in security and politics. I don't believe in strategic/historical coincidences.

I can only hope that the Dems take your point. Are you for real, or are you a deep Republican plant within the Obama campaign, trying to undermine him?


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Excuse Me
a resident of Stanford
on Aug 23, 2008 at 1:56 pm


I never asked you to prove a negative.

You said the surge worked and I said PROVE IT.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by back from vaction
a resident of Greenmeadow
on Aug 23, 2008 at 2:08 pm

"I can't prove a negative."

It wasn't a negative. He didn't say "prove the surge *didn't* work; he said "prove the surge *did* work.

Gary, YOU are the master of asking people to prove negatives.

Here's another question for you. Would we have needed the surge if Bush had managed the war as advised, in the beginning? I think we all know the answer to that one.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 23, 2008 at 2:42 pm

"The surge has been a total failure."

"Prove me wrong."


I didn't make those statements, "Excuse" did. As I said, I cannot prove a negative. For those of you with only a few neurons touching, let me make it plain to you: I cannot prove that the surge did not work. Perhpas "Excuse" would like to tackle that logical conundrum.

The success of the surge has been established by the reduction in overall violence in Iraq, the willingess of the Sunnis to climb aboard, the Shias to take on their own bad guys, political understandings that did not exist previous.

Joe Biden, in his wisdom, decided the best thing was to divide the country into three parts, as if he was doing the bidding of the extremists. McCain, stood up against such absudrities, when it was not popular to do so.

Biden is a 'finger-in-the-wind' gasbag. That's too bad, becasue he does have a compelling personal story, and some debating talent. He just lacks judgement.







 +   Like this comment
Posted by Excuse Me
a resident of Stanford
on Aug 23, 2008 at 2:47 pm


Gary wrote:

"Excuse, care to explain? This should be an interesting expalnation, since the facts are just the opposite. I am willing to give you a break, becasue you are probably just being absurd for the fun of it."

C'mon, Gary, exactly where your "facts" that prove "just the opposite" that the surge was not a total waste of our blood and treasure?


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 23, 2008 at 3:13 pm

Excuse, I have asserted, positively, by implication, that the surge did work. I have provided a brief synopsys to support my views. You have asserted that it did not work. I cannot prove your negative, that would be up to you. You could at least try to prove your negative case...it is not up to me to prove a negative, nor to support the absurdity of that assessment.

Here is a simple positive statement for you: McCain had the correct judgemnent, regarding the surge, and Biden had the wrong judgement.

I am attempting to let you off easy here, "Excuse". Instead of demanding proofs of negatives, why don't you just assert your own views...then we can all judge them.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Excuse Me
a resident of Stanford
on Aug 23, 2008 at 3:21 pm


It's not enough for you to assert "positively, by implication, that the surge did work".

You are going to have to try a lot harder to make your case.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 23, 2008 at 3:42 pm

Excuse, no more dodging on your part. Time to step up to the plate.

To reiterate, from my previous post:

"The success of the surge has been established by the reduction in overall violence in Iraq, the willingess of the Sunnis to climb aboard, the Shias to take on their own bad guys, political understandings that did not exist previous."

As I have already stated, I can only hope that you guys keep up this line of 'argumentation'...it will be a real hoot for McCain to quote Gen. Petraeus, Sunni and Shia and Kurdish Iraqis.

What will Joe B. say to Iraqis, as he defends, publicly, his solution for them: Cutting them into threes? Obama should admit his mistake, and dump this guy immediately. He is a loser. However, for selfish reasons, I hope he keeps him. That would elect McCain.





 +   Like this comment
Posted by A Boomer
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 23, 2008 at 3:53 pm

What were the objectives?

The surge was the strategy to meet the objectives of quelling the domestic and military violence, and to achieve a politically stable Iraq.

Have those objectives been met? The first two have been to an extent, although the General and Ambassador consistently warn it may not be stick to the ribs. I actually think it largely is, because what remains of the civilian population in Iraq just won't put up with the crap as they did for the first 5 years. That is more of a factor than the surge itself, but the surge has helped with the total effort.

The last objective, political stability, has not been met. It may be getting there, but it is not at all clear that the surge has contributed to accomplishing that objective. Nor is it clear that stability is long lasting, if it is accomplished and there is a regime that can actually run the country and be a stable presence.

It has no bearing whatsoever on the larger strategic concept that Shrub concocted around bringing democracy to places that lack it. Which, BTW, is among the various windmills that the Shrub administration chased to justify ousting Saddam Hussein. Will they ever 'fess up and just acknowledge that they had plans to take him out before they took over, and the 9/11 tragedy gave them the fig leaf they needed to go in with minimum resistance?

This is not a case study on how to get things done. Even if the outcome at the end of the day leads to what Shrub and his minions sought, the cost of doing so was totally out of line, and has no legs that will extend to the rest of the region.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 23, 2008 at 4:25 pm

A Boomer,

Thank you for a rational response. I don't agree with your big picture, but at least you present your case with all of your neurons touching. It is refreshing to hear an opponent to me, actually using his/her brain.

The surge turned the situation around, provided confidence for those Sunnis who were fed up with massive terror on the part of al qaeda in Iraq. It also provided confidence to the Shias who were too afraid to take on their own, unless the Sunnis started coming aboard. It was a springboard for better days, something the Iraqis and Americans had been waiting for.

The political deals, which are the real deals, in the end, are starting to flow. However, they could not have been done, without a sense of security confidence. The surge has provided this window of opportunity. Gen. Petraeus figured out the formula. Very smart guy.

McCain knew this. Biden got it wrong.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Excuse Me
a resident of Stanford
on Aug 23, 2008 at 4:37 pm

You're pulling this nonsense out of thin air.

Try again.

The fact is, Gary, we are still bogged down in an unwinnable nightmare that NEVER should have happened.




 +   Like this comment
Posted by Elect McCain????
a resident of another community
on Aug 23, 2008 at 4:38 pm

Wouldn't you know it, Obama names Biden as his Veep choice and the armchair warriors like Gary come out on the attack. Let's face it, it wouldn't have mattered who Obama would have chosen, the Garys of the world (and his alter egos on this forum) would have attacked.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by pam
a resident of Charleston Gardens
on Aug 23, 2008 at 5:04 pm

more on biden's pathetic anti-consumer support - this will really play well in pennsylvania and ohio - working class states that have suffered from biden's votes to help his well-heeled banking friends in delaware
Web Link


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 23, 2008 at 6:17 pm

"Let's face it, it wouldn't have mattered who Obama would have chosen, the Garys of the world (and his alter egos on this forum) would have attacked."

Wrong! I would have supported his VP choice, if it was Petraeus, or someone like him. Regretably, Obama decided to go defensive, with Biden. Very weak. Even worse, a bad mistake within a logical construct.

This thing is silly...sad (for Obama)...but it makes me happy, if only in a sad way. I was hoping for something serious, yet I will take the support that if offers McCain.







 +   Like this comment
Posted by A Boomer
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 23, 2008 at 6:31 pm

There was no al-Qaeda in Iraq before the Shubbies invaded. The insurgence that came about after the US invasion may have used the al-Qaeda mantle, but it should not be confused with the likes of Osama bin Laden.

While I truly hope for a good outcome as a result of the surge, I do not view that as countenancing bad foreign policy by the Shrub Administration, but instead an example of competent pros like Patreus doing the right thing in spite of ineptitude at the highest levels of government.

I think we are thankfully past the point where the risk of the Shrub Administration will attack Iran. Israel may still do it before the Shrubbies leave office, but I hope they are sane enough to think past this current Shrub moment. Israel's internal leadership situation is up for grabs right now, and I hope that keeps all involved from doing really dumb stuff.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Perspective
a resident of Midtown
on Aug 23, 2008 at 7:35 pm

Biden as a VP with Obama completely clinched an utter defeat.

This was a gift to McCain.

I just hope the stupid RNC and the Republican National Senate Committee aren't foolish enough to think that the landslide McCain is going to have has something to do with him and most of his policies.

McCain will win by a landslide because the Obama-Biden policy ticket is nauseating to most of us, and although McCain is too far to the left for a great many Republicans on most issues, at least McCain will not allow America to lose sight of its goals in Iraq and against terrorists world-wide, will fight earmarks and raising taxes, and has a record of voting against infanticide and partial-birth abortions.

I can't wait for the next 4 years to pass. I can only hope we get better candidates on both sides, and that McCain at least works to hold the line in the slide to the left of this country. I doubt he or the Congress will get enough power back to actually fix the border and fix Social Security, but at least we can hope for a stall.

Though I doubt the Democrats are going to wise up and pick anyone but another America-bashing, anti-military, anti-border control, anti-defense socialist the next time around, I can hope that the Republicans get a spine and don't let their fear of Democrats prevent them from nominating a real Republican.

In the meantime, the RNC and the NRSC gets no more of my money since they have been supporting these RINOs. I will only send money to individual candidates I support.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Emil Stenka
a resident of another community
on Aug 23, 2008 at 9:13 pm

Biden was right.
The surge has been a total failure.
Posted by Excuse Me, a resident of Stanford
>>>>>>>>>>>

Biden, sir is political manipulator and a well published plagiarizer.

Here is your proof you seek.

Web Link

I do suspect Mr. Biden can not pass a 4th grade math facts test let alone grasp a statistical trend line or the refinements necessary so that statistical estimates can be used to test various hypotheses, such as your statement.

No comment is necessary or required the math speaks for itself.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Perspective
a resident of Midtown
on Aug 24, 2008 at 5:16 am

Web Link

More evidence of success of the surge, grudgingly admitted by MSNBC. ( Bias about Iraq in the media always shows when good news is reported and there is a "but" ... Note: Bad news never has a "but")

This reports progress made in 15/18 political benchmarks given by the Dems when the surge started lowering the violent death rate in Iraq, in hopes that the benchmarks would not be met in order to show the surge was failing.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Elect McCain????
a resident of another community
on Aug 24, 2008 at 8:29 am

Boy oh boy, the McCain supporters are getting desperate now. Hurling insult after insult at Biden (Joe "hair plug" Biden, Famous Plagiarist, Mr. Biden can not pass a 4th grade math facts test).
Sad, how these people cannot discuss issues,but go for character slurs and insults.
Perspective--when you say " Obama-Biden policy ticket is nauseating to most of us"--how many votes does Gary and his alter egos have???


 +   Like this comment
Posted by My 2cents
a resident of College Terrace
on Aug 24, 2008 at 10:09 am

The facts are the facts.

Joe Biden has hair plugs and his vanity is renowned in the Senate. This vanity is probably only eclipsed by that of the late John Tower. I am sure we both can agree that America does not need a selfish vain, bitterly cruel and cold-hearted person in the white house. Haven't we had enough of Dick?

The plagiarist matter is again a fact and the web site pointed to covers his repeated plagiarism and gives insight to this matter in detailed. Web Link This repeated method of cheating points to a character flaw that most Americans find disgusting. It raises many questions as to the mans originality and his motivations of winning at any cost. This decision on Mr. Biden's part to steal ultimately cheats others of their original ideas.

If you want to debate those are the facts, not my claim, facts defined my Mr. Biden's actions.

Not a man of the people that Biden fellow.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 24, 2008 at 10:25 am

Elect, The left should probably not be criticizing the right about hurling insults. Many of you guys refer to our president as "shrub", "idiot", etc., apparently thinking that it is a reflection of something meaningful to you. I never understood that one, since GWB is the liberator of Iraq, and he refused to buy the 'containment of Saddam' pablum that appears to be so in vogue among the left (even Biden wasn't that dumb).



 +   Like this comment
Posted by Perspective
a resident of Midtown
on Aug 24, 2008 at 11:21 am

Yes, if you have paid attention at all in the last 8 years, the Republican leadership has been extremely civil in their discourse, and the Democrat leadership have refined the art of insult hurling.

Yet another useful Democrat contribution to our society.

It has been interesting to watch Republican leaders from the White House down be called virtually every name by DEM leaders, and have no responses by the Republicans other than those one would expect of a patient adult trying to keep his eyes from rolling in response to a ranting teen.

But, rant on leftists! It does your party and ideas so much good!


 +   Like this comment
Posted by A Boomer
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 24, 2008 at 6:09 pm

There are so many examples of how the Shrub Administration has abused its power and abdicated its responsibility. To gloss over such egregious practices by suggesting those who oppose this regime use rhetoric that can be trivialized misses the larger point that this has been an awful President.

EPA
FEMA
Department of Justice
Education (no child left behind)
Treasury (record deficits, after inheriting surpluses)
DOD under Rumsfeld
Working with Congress (6 years GOP controlled)

Others can add to the list. Last I checked, we have less than 5 months of damage control to go before the Shrubbies hit the road. Plenty of time for them to screw things up a few more times, if they choose to take the frat boy approach to leaving office and letting their successors mop up their final beer bashes.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 24, 2008 at 7:35 pm

Boomer,

GWB supported the liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq.

GWB supported energy discovery in ANWAR, as well as nuclear power.

GWB supported FEMA, within it legal bounds. Katrina showed how the state and local authorities were corrupt. I find FEMA, including GWB, to be leading our nation into a very dangerous position...are we taxpayers to become the insurer of last resort? For example, why are we rebuiling a city that is BELOW sea level? Also, Mississippi River rebuilds. Why are we doing this? It is econmic suicide.

GWB has a DOJ. Your point is? That he shaded towards national security vs. civil rights? I am only guessing on this one.

GWB supported "No Child Left Behind". Well, good for him...nobody else was sticking up for standards, especially the teachers' unions. We are beginning to see slow progress...it was going in the opposite direction, before GWB.

GWB inherited a recession, was confronted with a major war, and has fought that war responsibly. We have not been attacked, again, since 9-11; Iraq is liberated; both Iraq an Afghanistan have been releatively low cost wars (both blood and treasure). Just in terms of deficits, it cannot compare to WWII, Korea, Vietnam, compared to the national GDP. It was the GWB tax cuts, especially capital gains, that brought us out of a very serious situation, following 9-11. It appears that Obama wants to put us back into a bad place, by reversing these tax rules.

GWB, along with Rumsfeld, defeated Saddam! Then they hanged him! Great job! They even managed to provide a trial for the bastard (I didn't agree with that part...he should have been lynched immediately).

GWB attempted to work with Congress, except that he never had 60 reliable votes in the Senate. Neither will Obama, probably. Only major events will cause the Congress to come together, and only for a while. Sober Americans will, usually, wake up to the fact that socialism in not the answer. A coalition of Republicans, capitalist Democrats, Libertarians, with 60 Senate votes, will turn this thing around. Until then, it will just be crisis to crisis.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by 1-20-09 is almost here!
a resident of Green Acres
on Aug 24, 2008 at 9:34 pm

Gary:
Worst. President. Ever.
End of story.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by High and Inside
a resident of Meadow Park
on Aug 24, 2008 at 9:46 pm

When you start in politics you are young, dumb and full of -- enthusiasm. right.

You look like this: Web Link

After a few years of playing catcher and taking a few hard inside high balls for all your banker buddies you are sore and cross and

You look like this: Web Link

Biden right this is a joke, right? Obama can't be this dumb or can he?




 +   Like this comment
Posted by Patriot
a resident of Duveneck/St. Francis
on Aug 24, 2008 at 10:00 pm

1-20-09

I completely agree. There's never been an incompetent like Shrub, ever. Cheny has been the real President, anyway. His own party disowns him; he's a laughing stock, worldwide; and, he has failed in every initiative undertaken, except with the gutting of Federal services and programs. This is what happens when a nation sits high on the hog, unchallenged, for decades. We got lazy and stupid, and thought that any old cowpoke would do. America has a lot to learn. It won't come easy, and no one President is the answer. In fact, we have to remove power from the Oval Office; we have an imperial Presidency. That's a mistake, especially when the "imperial one" is an inbred dunce, like Shrub.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by Anti War
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 24, 2008 at 11:24 pm

The surge worked?

The fact that maybe 100,000 private military, like Blackwater,were hired helped.

The fact that probably billions of $$ were given to leaders of Suni factions along with weapons helped.

The surge was done so that the leaders could form a stable goverment, which it isn't.

What will happen when we stop giving out millions or billions of $$ to the various factions? No one knows.

There is no resolution on many things: Will permanent military bases stay in Iraque? And 10's of our soldiers stationed at them. Will the 5000 people at the embassy really be running the country from behind the curtain as is being done now.

Will the U.S. control the oil fields, etc..?

Will the Iraques be able to work rebuilding their country or will Halliburton and other outside companies only be allowed to run things?

If the surge worked why are we still there. Just like "Mission Accomplished" was a big hoax, the "Surge Worked" is a big hoax.

McCain clams to know nothing about Econimics, which is a true statement, that should really help The U.S. shouldn't it?

It's assuring that Carl Rove is pulling the strings on McCain and will be there with the rest of the Bush cronies. McCain does what he is told to do.
He is a brilliant person just like Bush is.?? He was fifth from the bottom of his class of about 200 at the military acadamy.

It's obvious why people support McCain. War is a way to transfer billions of $$ from the poor,middle and upper classes to the super wealthy. McCains motto is "War is Good" Kill, Kill and pass the money to my friends.


 +   Like this comment
Posted by meg
a resident of Old Palo Alto
on Aug 25, 2008 at 5:35 am



Democrat Daniel Patrick Moynihan provided the most trenchant critique of Jimmy Carter's foreign policy.
Moynihan said of Carter in 1980: "Unable to distinguish between our friends and our enemies, he has essentially adopted our enemies' view of the world."

A relatively straight line runs from George McGovern to Jimmy Carter to Barack Obama.
Like George McGovern, Barack Obama staked his candidacy on the purity of his opposition to the war in which we are engaged.
Like McGovern, his avowed policies would guarantee defeat.
Like Jimmy Carter, he has essentially adopted our enemies' view of the world.

Tonight Jimmy Carter is scheduled to address the Democratic Convention.
As I recall, Bill Clinton had the sagacity to keep Carter off the podium in 1992 and 1996, as did Al Gore in 2000, though Gore provided for a ceremony honoring Carter at the 2000 convention. Picking up the mantle of the party of defeat, John Kerry hauled Carter out of mothballs to address the Democratic convention in 2004.
Tonight as Barack Obama calls him back for an encore, Carter stands as an apt symbol of the follies of a bygone era that Obama now seeks to update and repeat.


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