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Public Acceptance of Evolution in 34 Countries

Original post made by Anonymous, Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Apr 21, 2008

Why the U.S. has H1-B Visas and our graduate students in science are mostly not American...

Web Link

Comments (56)

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Posted by jill
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 21, 2008 at 1:28 pm



The data is meaningless without knowing how the question was phrased


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Posted by ol' lady
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 21, 2008 at 2:56 pm

Agreed. Means nothing. If you ask me if I believe in Creation, I would say yes. If you ask me if I believe in Evolution, I would say yes. The two are not mutually exclusive in my mind, nor in the very vast majority of Christian minds, contrary to how the media likes to portray Christians.

Hard to remember in the way Christianity is portrayed by modern educators, but Catholic monks PRESERVED scientific and historical information when others were trying to burn the information up in the Middle Ages.

So, I would like to see what the basis for the "data" is.




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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 21, 2008 at 3:11 pm

Any kind of scientist pre 20th century, used science as a way of proving the existence of God rather than disproving. Furthermore, the Bible has never claimed to be a scientific textbook, rather a spiritual account of the relationship between man and God. I agree with ol lady, you can't make comparisons between chalk and cheese and many people in many countries would agree that they believe in both.


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Posted by Paul
a resident of Downtown North
on Apr 21, 2008 at 3:23 pm

"Catholic monks PRESERVED scientific and historical information when others were trying to burn the information up in the Middle Ages."

Only the scientific information that agreed with Church dogma. Anything and anybody else could get a warm reception at the stake, as Giordano Bruno learned and Galileo barely escaped. Actually, much valuable scholarship was preserved by Islamic scholars.

Science and religion can coexist only to the extent religion modifies its doctrines to accommodate science. Fundamentalism will not bend so, to the extent fundamentalism of any kind prevails, science declines.


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Posted by jill
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 21, 2008 at 3:37 pm



The Pope repeated on his visit a message of the Catholic Church.

That is the emphasis on both FAITH and REASON

Reason without Faith leads to the culture of death


Faith without Reason leads to the horrors of radical Islam, also a culture of death.


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Posted by Palo Alto mother
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 21, 2008 at 4:25 pm

If the data means that only about 40% (as shown in the chart) of Americans think that evolution is a scientific reality, it is dismal.


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Posted by ol' lady
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 21, 2008 at 5:53 pm

well said jill.

PA Mom, that is what we are saying...it is meaninglessly absurd, you can't draw any conclusions at all from it, because you have no clue what the sample numbers are, who was contacted and how, and what the questions were.

Paul, something like 1.2 billion people are Christian, and of those, about 1.1 billion are Catholic.

Catholics are not literalists, nor fundamentalists. It is an error to draw conclusions about Christians on the basis of a few fundamentalists, the majority of whom are, granted, here in the
USA. But, even in the USA, the vast majority of Christians are not fundamentalist or literalists.


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Posted by ol' lady
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 21, 2008 at 6:06 pm

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization (by Thomas E. Woods Jr (Author)


I invite anyone who wishes to learn something other than what they think they already know .... read the above book for another side to the pap most of us have been fed in our history classes in America regarding Catholism. This is written by a respected historian who got sick of the commonly held wrong beliefs that stem from not having the whole story.


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Posted by Palo Alto mother
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 21, 2008 at 9:13 pm

Well, lady, finding the info you requested was not too hard. The article with it all is at:

Web Link

The question was: Adults in each country were asked whether they thought the statement "Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals," was true, false, or if they were unsure.

I stand by my earlier statement that the US response is dismal.



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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 21, 2008 at 9:18 pm

It is possible that the US adults actually put some thought into the response rather than glibly responded the text book answer.

Evolution in part is very different from whether evolution and the big bang theory are gospel. There is definitely evidence of evolution in part, but to some extent there is no missing link or "half way" beings to confirm that mankind evolved from animals. To answer yes to the above question shows that the respondent is just giving a pat not thought through answer. To answer the question "do you believe that there has been evolutionary development on Earth?" would bring a very different response.


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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 21, 2008 at 9:20 pm

(Sorry, I was too hasty)

To answer a complete yes to the stated question takes a lot more faith than many of us will allow. This is not a religious statement, just a scientific statement of someone looking for more proof.


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Posted by Palo Alto mother
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 21, 2008 at 9:25 pm

Resident you are right. We should really give serious thought to the possibility that God plopped us on earth as we are on the 6th day of his one week long creation marathon. lol.


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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 21, 2008 at 9:38 pm

PA Mother

I never mentioned the creation argument, you did. I specifically said that I was not making a religious statement.

What I said was that it took a lot of faith to believe in evolution. Scientists have not proved that man evolved from previous extinct half men/ half animal beings. There are many theories, but proof is no more than an educated guess.

I am not talking about anything as dramatic as the possibility of what you described. The biblical account of creation is a spiritual description rather than a literal description of scientific proof. If you want to believe literally in 6 day creation then you are quite welcome to believe it.

There are many people who are just not convinced of either and they are stating their belief, or unbelief, whichever phrase you prefer.


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Posted by ol lady
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 22, 2008 at 7:20 am

Palo Alto Mom: I clicked the back link, and I searched the site, for the original article. Since I didn't post the thread and since I am quite certain there is a contrary and "bad America" agenda to the whole thing, I did not give it more time. I am sure it was easy to find for anyone who wanted to put more than 5 minutes into the effort.

Americans are, by their nature, individualistical skeptics. We were founded on rejecting what others believe, and on rejecting control of us. It is a part of who we are.

I am with Resident. I can no more unequivocally state that all the theory of evolution is correct than I can state that all the scientific conclusions in the world are correct.

I CAN state "probably so" to most scientific conclusions, including evolutionary theory.

It is like asking the question: "Human beings, as we know them, have been influenced by God throughout their history"..I, personally, would say "yes" because of my evidentiary experience and those of multiple others, including multiple scientists...including Nobel Prize winning scientists. But, the majority of Americans, my bet woudl be, would answer "not sure". I would not take that as evidence that Americans are not a religious group, anymore than I take as evidence that Americans think we didn't evolve.

I haven't the time to research the questionnaire, nor how the respondents were picked. It would be interesting, if I had time, to learn more about who did the study and how they picked folks and how many there were, and where the folks were from etc. Did they pick folks from highly fundamentalist areas of the USA and the metropolitan areas of other countries?

There is so much that can go wrong with surveys, my skepticism is extremely high with them


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Posted by ol' lady
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 22, 2008 at 7:21 am

Or, to put another way, so many ways to influence the outcome, depending on what point you are trying to prove, that surveys have become virtually meaningless.


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Posted by R Wray
a resident of Palo Verde
on Apr 22, 2008 at 9:55 am

There is no doubt that the theory of evolution is correct. If you need more evidence, then you are philosophically opposed on principle to knowing anything by using reason.


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Posted by Paul
a resident of Downtown North
on Apr 22, 2008 at 10:10 am

There is a vast gulf between the responses of Icelanders, Danes and Swedes on the top end of the chart, and Cypriots, Americans, and Turks on the bottom. Shall we therefore infer that the two groups were asked a very different question?


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Posted by Danny
a resident of Crescent Park
on Apr 22, 2008 at 11:04 am

There is no proof of God -- especially this robe-wearing male God religious folks like to call "He," "Him" and "Lord." Years and years of scientific research have proved the theory of Evolution. Some still think evidence of God's existence lies in the pages of a human-penned book (I guess the Wizard of Oz and Moby Dick are real too, eh?).

To me, the "faith" and devoted non-logic of most religions is based entirely on fear and guilt, or from being brainwashed as a child. It's so irresponsible -- religious devotees can claim they're "blessed" when something good happens. They think they have a direct line with God, and therefore believe themselves to be better or more righteous than others. I also find it strange that they feel God needs to be "praised." If God is an omnipotent and ethereal deity, why would "He" need reproductive organs (which is what separates male from female) and why would "He" need/want to be "praised" (which demonstrates vanity -- a "sin").

I prefer to live in the real world. Where real people can solve real problems. I'll leave the fiction to the writers.


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Posted by ol' lady
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 22, 2008 at 11:14 am

Danny, I am very sorry for your sake that this is what you believe is true of most Christians.

RWray, the question was not about the theory of evolution in general.

Furthermore, there was "no doubt" that the theory of the earth going into another ice age was correct, and it was wrong, and there was "no doubt" that the people were going to cause the earth to burn up, and recently this is being proven wrong, and there was "no doubt" that everything was predictable in the world, but that was proved incorrect with "chaos theory", and there was "no doubt" that the biodiversity of the earth was decreasing, but lately new lifeforms have been discovered, and there was "no doubt" that...you get the point.

I have no doubt about evolution being a factual reality..the question is how much and how far.

Those limits have not been defined beyond doubt. I am a scientist, and therefore a skeptic.


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Posted by ol' lady
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 22, 2008 at 11:14 am

Call me a "Doubting Thomas" if you will.


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Posted by Danny
a resident of Crescent Park
on Apr 22, 2008 at 11:50 am

Ol' lady: Don't be sorry for my sake. I still see people for people. I don't dislike anyone simply due to their misguided beliefs. I have many friends who are Christians and I care about each and every one of them - so long as they don't try to push their religion on me.

I live my life based on fact and morals - I treat people with respect and dignity because that's how I would want to be treated. I value and care about all life on the planet because it's the right thing to do, the selfless thing to do. No reason to feel sorry for my sake - I'm one of the most content, kind, confident and sympathetic people you'll ever meet.


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Posted by R Wray
a resident of Palo Verde
on Apr 22, 2008 at 11:58 am

The case for evolution is much stronger than your dubious examples. Just because some accept errors should not make you a skeptic. Scientists base their knowledge on previous knowledge. If you can't know anything you're not going to get very far.


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Posted by bobh
a resident of another community
on Apr 22, 2008 at 12:28 pm

The question had nothing to do with religion, it was simply do you believe in evolution. Same question in all countries. Since evolution has passed all the tests of a scientific theory (which is to say that data exists to support it and it can be refined with new data) it is indeed a sad commentary on the state of education in America. Of course we knew that based on who gets elected to lead our country.


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Posted by Jane
a resident of Professorville
on Apr 22, 2008 at 12:42 pm



Remember it was the Godless regimes of Mao, Hitler and Stalin who killed 200 million people in the 20th century.

for some reason fundamentalist atheists try to distort Christian views on the sanctity of human life to promote their Godless agenda


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Posted by Paul
a resident of Downtown North
on Apr 22, 2008 at 1:14 pm

What's the body count for the "Godly" regimes through history, Jane? You might start with WWI. And are you sure none of the Brownshirts and/or SS went to church?


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Posted by Jane
a resident of Professorville
on Apr 22, 2008 at 1:18 pm



Paul

Thanks for proving my point!


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Posted by Danny
a resident of Crescent Park
on Apr 22, 2008 at 1:39 pm

Jane: There is no more proof of God that than there is of aliens, ghosts or the Lock Ness monster. At least evolution has some scientific merit. And it wasn't "Godlessness" that urged Hitler and Stalin to commit untold attrocities - it was their own distorted outlooks on life and their fellow human beings.

Take some responsibility. Don't blame or thank "God" for every decision made by free-thinking men and women. We make our own choices and we pay our own prices. Or don't you believe in free will?

And - although my history is a bit rough - wasn't Jesus beaten and crucified by a bunch of people who believed in God?


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Posted by Jane
a resident of Professorville
on Apr 22, 2008 at 1:46 pm



Danny

Thanks for further proof of my point, also the Romans were polytheists and pagans

Are you smarter than a third grader?

NO


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Posted by Paul
a resident of Downtown North
on Apr 22, 2008 at 1:47 pm

And Jane, don't leave out the American Civil War, in which Christians slaughtered one another wholesale.


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Posted by Danny
a resident of Crescent Park
on Apr 22, 2008 at 2:14 pm

Because I believe in logic and fact over "faith" and superstition, that makes me no smarter than a third grader...? Wow. I really hope you're not a teacher.


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Posted by Jane
a resident of Professorville
on Apr 22, 2008 at 2:39 pm



Danny

You are not smarter than a 5th grader then because you do not know that the Romans were pagans.

Again 200 million people were killed in the 20th century by the explicitly Godless regimes of Mao, Stalin and Hitler, all three used science and engineering to design their cultures of death and perfectly illustrated where Reason without Faith leads


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Posted by just thinkin
a resident of South of Midtown
on Apr 22, 2008 at 2:55 pm

Creation theory teaches us the Earth is less than 6,000 years old, but........
"Associated Press - By Paul J. Weber
updated 4:53 p.m. PT, Thurs., Jan. 17, 2008
DALLAS - A Texas museum that teaches creationism is counting on the auction of a prehistoric mastodon skull to stave off extinction. The founder and curator of the Mt. Blanco Fossil Museum, which rejects evolution and claims that man and dinosaurs coexisted, said it will close unless the Volkswagen-sized skull finds a generous bidder.
"If it sells, well, then we can come another day," Joe Taylor said. "This is very important to our continuing."
Heritage Auction Galleries says the skull is estimated to be 40,000 years old, and projects it will fetch upward of $160,000. The artifact discovered in La Grange in 2004 is believed to be the largest of its kind, Heritage spokesman David Herskowitz said..."


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Posted by Danny
a resident of Crescent Park
on Apr 22, 2008 at 3:16 pm

Jane: I guarantee you that I'm much smarter than a fifth grader (my IQ is above 150), but thanks for the unnecesary insult. I question your knowledge of Roman culture though. Many Romans believed in Gods, similar to the Greeks. They weren't all pagans, as you claim.

Web Link

Your thought process is also terribly biased. Christians have done mass amounts of killings themselves (does the term "Salem witch hunt" mean anything to you?), not to mention the decades of child abuse and pedophilia that went on unabated in the Catholic church. "Faith" is a word that's thrown around without regard. The dictionary defines the word as "belief that is not based on proof." Sorry - but I prefer to live in the world of consequences. A world in which society holds me - and I hold myself - responsible for my actions. If we always leave it up to the man in the sky, we'll never understand freedom and responsibility.


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Posted by Paul
a resident of Downtown North
on Apr 22, 2008 at 3:21 pm

"...Godless regimes of Mao, Stalin and Hitler, all three used science and engineering to design their cultures of death and perfectly illustrated where Reason without Faith leads"

So were the Crusaders "better" because they massacred believers in the name of Faith?


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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 22, 2008 at 3:27 pm

....And getting back to the topic at the top of the thread, just because someone is not yet convinced about evolution, it does not follow that it makes them bad at science. And, as far as I am aware, the majority of H1B visas are from countries that are not at the top of this list, I don't think we get that many applications from Icelandics and Scandanavians. (or whichever countries top the lists.)


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Posted by Jane
a resident of Professorville
on Apr 22, 2008 at 3:38 pm

paul and danny


Thanks again for illustrating and proving my point so well, which is again-

For some reason fundamentalist atheists try to distort Christian views on the sanctity of human life to promote their Godless agenda.



danny, you may well be an "Idiot Savant"Web Link

in which case the " are you smarter than a fifth grader" test would not apply.


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Posted by Danny
a resident of Crescent Park
on Apr 22, 2008 at 3:54 pm

Ah, more insults. Wow. Does a derogatory insult equal a logical argument in your book? Is this how all Christians act? I guess I'm right in doubting the religion. Also, I found this bit about paganism interesting:

"The term 'pagan' is a Christian adaptation of the 'gentile' of Judaism, and as such has an inherent Christian or Abrahamic bias."

Your biased viewpoints and "arguments" hold no water with the logical thinkers among us (thank goodness there are a few of us left). And you have yet to respond to any of the things I've poined out, which tells me you have to real response to them.

I'm sure you'll come up with another good insult though.


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Posted by Tim F.
a resident of Palo Alto Hills
on Apr 22, 2008 at 4:10 pm

In response to the second posted comment ("the two [Evolution and Christianity] are not mutually exclusive in my mind, nor in the very vast majority of Christian minds..."): They most certainly are mutually exclusive. Invoking "Theistic Evolution" does not help. You see, if Darwinian Evolution is true, then physical death existed before the sin of Adam and Eve. If so, then physical death is not a penalty for sin. If so, then Christ's death on the cross and subsequent resurrection did not atone for sin. If so, Christianity's core claim is false. This line of reasoning is fully developed at Web Link . Those who profess Christian faith must choose between Evolution and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. One or the other, but not both.


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Posted by Jane
a resident of Professorville
on Apr 22, 2008 at 4:25 pm



The quality of math and science teaching in USA public schools needs to improve.

The reason it is so behind other countries has nothing to do with religious Faith, we do not teach religious faith in public schools here.

In Catholic private schools they do teach religious Faith and the achievements in math and science in RC schools are superior across the socio-economic and racial spectrum.

So the atheist fundamentalists are barking up the wrong tree again, but they keep on barking.

There was an interesting article about the school system in Finland where they excel in math and science while giving very little homework.

A lot of their success has to do with parental involvement and teacher accountability.


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Posted by Jane
a resident of Professorville
on Apr 22, 2008 at 4:57 pm



Re math and science in Finland here is the article I mentioned from the WSJ Web Link

High-school students here rarely get more than a half-hour of homework a night. They have no school uniforms, no honor societies, no valedictorians, no tardy bells and no classes for the gifted. There is little standardized testing, few parents agonize over college and kids don't start school until age 7.

Yet by one international measure, Finnish teenagers are among the smartest in the world. They earned some of the top scores by 15-year-old students who were tested in 57 countries. American teens finished among the world's C students even as U.S. educators piled on more homework, standards and rules. Finnish youth, like their U.S. counterparts, also waste hours online. They dye their hair, love sarcasm and listen to rap and heavy metal. But by ninth grade they're way ahead in math, science and reading -- on track to keeping Finns among the world's most productive workers.


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Posted by Paul
a resident of Downtown North
on Apr 22, 2008 at 6:05 pm

"In Catholic private schools they do teach religious Faith and the achievements in math and science in RC schools are superior across the socio-economic and racial spectrum."

Fine, Jane. I went to Catholic school. A real Catholic school, with nuns and the parish church right next door. They told us the Church had no conflict with Darwinian evolution.

Graduated top of my class too, so I expect some proper reverence from the likes of you.


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Posted by Anonymous
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 23, 2008 at 7:27 am

Adults in each country were asked whether they thought the statement "Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals," was true, false, or if they were unsure.

Here is the original article.
Web Link


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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 23, 2008 at 4:57 pm

As an immigrant to this country I was surprised to hear about "creationism" in the biblical sense. I thought these people were nuts because "evolution" is so accepted in most Western cultures there isn't even a discussion about it.


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Posted by Peace Through Victory.
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 23, 2008 at 5:10 pm



America love it or leave it

Europeans do not have the choice of bitterly clinging to their churches and guns( they do not have either) and questioning the values of immigrants ( to do the later is against the law asBrigitte Bardot found out).

America has free speech, you can express pretty much any believe you want that is not the case in Europe.

Europe id demographically doomed, the future of Western Civilization is with the USA


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Posted by ol' lady
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 24, 2008 at 2:31 pm

yup...can't speak the truth as you see it in most of the rest of the world, including Europe. Too much oppression.

The question is still absurd. Do you believe we evolved from OTHER SPECIES of animals? What a strange way to ask this question.


Tim F.: You are assuming that the vast majority of Christians are literalists, and we are not. If you are a literalist, then you can't believe in evolution. Since 99% are not literalists, ie we can see behind the literal words, then there is no problem to be both faithful AND scientific. The difference is that we don't let science become our God.

I assume you are not Catholic?

Paul, if you were raised Catholic, then how is that you can possibly not know the true history of the Crusades? You speak with the bias, ie not knowing the whole story, like someone raised secular, or at least not Catholic.


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Posted by T
a resident of Duveneck/St. Francis
on Apr 24, 2008 at 4:20 pm

I suspect the question was worded that way to distinguishs between two concepts that are commonly called "evolution" by us common folk:
1) the gradual change from one species to an entirely different species
2) mutating within a species but still remaining within the original species.

Okay OL, I'm going to bite. Please give a one-paragraph overview of the true history of the Crusades. My mother was raised Catholic and she was taught by nuns all the way to graduation. But she never shared with me the true history of the Crusades and I'm interested to hear, as long as you can keep it short. (Very short.)


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Posted by Jane
a resident of Professorville
on Apr 24, 2008 at 4:36 pm


re Crusades

Anatolia, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and the whole of North Africa was Christian.

The Arabs forced there conversation to Islam under death threat.

The Muslims aim was to control what had been the Eastern Roman Empire and destroy Byzantium

They control the Holy Land and were threatening pilgrims

The Crusaders were aimed at stopping this murderous jihad

Sound familiar

The slaughter of the Christian Armenians last century was a similar murderous jihad-- but on a smaller scale

and on to Dafur


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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 24, 2008 at 4:40 pm

Jane

If only it was conversation.


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Posted by Paul
a resident of Downtown North
on Apr 25, 2008 at 3:57 pm

Hello, OL. Yes, the nuns did teach about the Crusades. But facts are facts and biases, real or projected, are irrelevant.


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Posted by just thinkin
a resident of South of Midtown
on Apr 25, 2008 at 4:18 pm

"Why the U.S. has H1-B Visas and our graduate students in science are mostly not American..."????

Americans Don't need visas and or system breeds capitalists, not scientists (unless there's a buck in it)????

{Hey, it's Friday.}


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Posted by ol' lady
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 26, 2008 at 6:06 am

The kick off of the Crusades was when a new Immam, after over 300 years of peaceful co-existence and allowing Christians access to Jerusalem, decided to cut off access to Christians. Also decided that it was time to start "converting" Christians, as noted above.

For some reason, this was unacceptable to Christians, who, at the behest of the Pope, volunteered to accompany Christians on their religious pilgramages to Jerusalem to assure access to their Holy Sites, and to protect fleeing Christians on their journeys.

Thus began the wars.

Imagine anyone taking over Muslim holy sites then not allowing access to them..then forcing Muslims to convert to Christianity by the sword...and what would happen.

Not excusing the horrific excesses that I am certain occured, certain kinds of men being in every area of the world and almost every profession, but the point is that it was not the big, evil Christians willy nilly deciding to slaughter Muslims, it was precisely the opposite. With an equal and opposite reaction.

Again, I don't beleive your were raised Catholic, or you would know "the rest of the story".


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Posted by Anonymous
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Apr 27, 2008 at 10:41 pm

Just thinkin has a point. From an economic point of view, it doesn't make sense to become a scientist or engineer (or school teacher). It's more financially rewarding to get an MBA or JD or even an MD. Pick a profession which is protected from foreign competition, the more restrictions the better.

Can you Crusaders go hijack a different topic?


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Posted by AThinkingAmerican
a resident of another community
on Apr 27, 2008 at 11:50 pm

Peace Through Victory:

You speak like a true ignorant American, best illustrated by your "handle" - how's our "victory" in Iraq coming along, peace-wise??? (How many YEARS now since "Mission Accomplished" was declared by our anointed Emperor-King?)

"America love it or leave it"

Try instead: America, we could do a HELL of a lot better, but we could care less, so either kiss our you-know-what or take a hike.

"Europeans do not have the choice of bitterly clinging to their churches and guns (they do not have either) and questioning the values of immigrants"

Last time I checked, there were still a heck of a lot of churches and parishioners over in Europe (and isn't the VATICAN still located over there – or was it outsourced to India, just like we do with most everything here in the US?) .
As to guns – thanks to them, we have the Columbines, Virginia Techs and Southern Illinois U's to keep us "entertained", as well as to use in an absolutely amazingly stupid counterintuitive argument that we actually need more, not less, guns and gun access.
And, finally, when did America - the world's "melting pot" - suddenly become "no immigrants please" (unless we can scapegoat you). Perhaps we should just pull down the Statute of Liberty (like we did with Saddam's statute) and haul it off to the scrap iron bin?

"America has free speech, you can express pretty much any believe you want that is not the case in Europe."

I didn't know that Europe had become like China in the last century in terms of suppressing free speech.
On the other hand, the U.S. version of "free speech" has become dominated by the hateful, nationalistic, lowest-common-denominator speech from right wing hacks like Savage, Dobbs, Hannity, Coulter, etc. (yea, Ann, you're SO right in saying that the "9/11 wives" wanted their husbands to die so that they could made a (pardon the pun) killing off Uncle Sam & live the "high life"). And, of course, if you dare to even question one thing they (or King Bush) says, you are immediately labeled an unpatriotic terrorist-in-hiding bent on the total destruction of America and Western (read: white Christian) Civilization. (And if you don't fly the flag or have the pin on, you're DEFINITELY a terrorist.)

"Europe id demographically doomed, the future of Western Civilization is with the USA"

God help us all (and by that I mean the "real God", not the one who supposedly anointed us #1 in the world and made us totally infallible and benevolent).



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Posted by Parent
a resident of Walter Hays School
on Apr 28, 2008 at 1:46 am

My daughter did a paper on the Statue of Liberty and noted that she is located on the East Coast, welcoming immigrants from Europe.

Our founding fathers had no idea of how many people lived in The Third World. Of course they would have know we could not sustain their massive populations.


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Posted by ol' lady
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 28, 2008 at 7:02 am

Dear Peace;

You posted on the wrong thread..you meant to post on the Huffington Post, or Moveon.org. OH, and I know this post. It is the same ol' cut and paste you have done before.

I am one of the hijackers on Crusades. My apologies, I responded to a post without remembering what thread it was on. And from there we flew.


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Posted by ol' lady
a resident of Midtown
on Apr 28, 2008 at 7:10 am

RE: The part of the misplaced post to Huffington/Moveon that IS relevant is the belief that we have become "no immigrants please" related to Visas.

We have THE HIGHEST per capita influx of LEGAL immigrants to the USA in the world. How does that make us a "no immigrants" nation?

No ILLEGAL immigrants is what you read about. If you don't believe in borders, then I invite you to leave your front door wide open and let anyone into your home who wishes to come in and stay.

If an immigrant enters the country on an H1 visa, s/he is here to fill a need. We can argue if it is a false need jerry-rigged by offering lower pay to immigrants in order to avoid paying USA citizens more..but at least these folks are legal.

I am personally responsible for bringing in only 3 H1 visa employees, so I can only attest to my 3. And, they were all extremely needed after trying for over a year to get "local talent" to apply for the jobs. Trust me, it is much easier to hire, train, and retain/maintain local than it is to hire, train and retain/maintain out of country, we do it out of necessity.


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