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Suicide-prevention efforts focus on tracks
Gunn principal describes list of support measures for students, staff, parents

by Chris Kenrick
Palo Alto Online Staff

Posted by DZ, a member of the Terman Middle School community, on Nov 2, 2009 at 10:22 am

Track is the problem!

Please focus on it and do something.

All other talks are just irresponsible and useless.

Posted by Concerned, a resident of Stanford, on Nov 2, 2009 at 10:39 am

The tracks aren't the problem

The school isn't the problem

Too much homework isn't the problem

The problem?- no one listens to these kids. Parents/caregivers/school teachers all have their agendas for what is best for kids. How about talking and LISTENING to your kids instead of telling them what you want them to hear and only hearing what you want to hear? This is what I hear: "my mom went to Harvard and my dad went to Yale. I want to apply to UCLA so I can play baseball, but they want me to go to an Ivy league school, so they won't let me apply". Or, my parents won't allow me to go to the beach party on Saturday because I am getting a B in physics. A B?! Who is going to care 20 years from now that they got a B in physics! People, listen to your kids- they tell you everything you need to know, the problem isn't them- it's the people they are trying to reach out to not HEARING.

Posted by Agreed, a resident of the Downtown North neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 10:58 am

I agree with "Concerned". There are a lot of unhappy, over pressured kids who have parents who will not accept them as they are. Kids cry when it's time to apply to college because their parents get to make the list of what acceptable schools are. And pity the poor kid who has no chance of getting into any of them. As a parent of a child at a CSU, I know the reaction when other students and parents hear where my child goes to school. I cansee them thinking...Loser... The kids who choose to go to Foothill for financial reasons, or family crises, or extra time to grow up...they get the Loser label too. I don't think Palo Alto is going to change and suddenly embrace what many parents consider "mediocrity," but the schools could do better to address the students who are the majority in the middle.

There are a significant number of those top students who go off to the Ivy Leagues and crash and burn. You don't often hear about that. Our schools/society take an emotional toll on kids and some are more resilient than others.

We can hire and consult with any number of experts on suicide. But I agree with Concerned that parents need to really listen to their children. And you have to start when they are toddlers. Kids aren't trophies, they're individuals.

Posted by JM, a resident of the Charleston Meadows neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 11:12 am

Track is the problem!

Human mental state is such a complex universe. What people are doing with all those counseling is to improve the average happiness level of every students in PA to avoid those extreme cases. While it has it's good attention, it's not the right way of preventing the suicides we are seeing here and now.

And just talking about all those mental health possibilities without doing any real work about the track is, IMO, heartless.

Hire some security guards at the cross 7pm-11pm every school day!

Posted by West Meadow Dr resident, a resident of the Charleston Meadows neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 11:19 am

Stop going around and around talking about, start doing something about it.

Posted by EL, a resident of the Professorville neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 11:21 am

The problem is not the tracks-- it is us. This is a sick community in some ways, and for some reason we keep ignoring that sickness. What exactly it is, is hard to define, but it comes from us, from the larger community, as well as individual family dynamics. Blaming the trains or the tracks for this ("high priority") is almost laughable!

These kids were deeply depressed or had major issues that we cannot begin to fathom, but not admitting that the larger Palo Alto community, Gunn High (with its over-competitive and cut-throat nature-- "You aren't taking three AP's? Wow.. there goes Stanford..."), and the focus on wealth and status symbols in this city/area are frightening. (Is not Palo Alto referred to as "Shallow Alto" by many in the area?)

Comparing ourselves to the small towns of the mid-west and their higher suicide rates does not mean we are perfect, nor does it mean that the issues this area has with money, power, wealth, grades, pressure, etc. do not exist. Indeed, they do.

Get your heads out of the sand, PLEASE! WE are the problem , NOT the trains or the crossing!

I wish it were so simple--"No trains = no suicides." The problem lies much, much deeper. We have seen the enemy, and he is us.

Posted by thanks, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 11:22 am

Thank you city and school officials and parent community for working together on this. I can't see anything that has been overlooked, also appreciate your getting experts from around the country on this.

A Post article today quoted one of the top researchers on clusters, and it seems awareness of suicide is in itself a suicide risk for teens. It will help that any efforts will be managed so that suicide is addressed not in an atmosphere of highlighting it at school, or all the time, or making it a centerpiece of conversations on emotional well being.

Posted by Susan Harnisch, a resident of Stanford, on Nov 2, 2009 at 11:38 am

I think it would be great if you could have a team of former Gunn students who now work in the area give inspirational talks about their high school experiences and what got them where they are today. Look at ones who graduated 2-6 years ago that are now in various walks of life. (emphasis on various walks of life: mechanics, musicians, contractors, pharmacists, student aides, etc. NOT .com executives, or CEO's) Maybe it should be connected with a Sociology Class.

I think there may be too much emphasis on the part of parents and/or schools (in general) on 1)getting into top colleges, 2)getting the top jobs, and 3) "making money." Hello, there is more to life then that! How about just having a job and starting a family?

This generation of students has heard all about the US banking crash, and heard how much money their family has lost, and how it has impacted their college funds, as well as the empact on the world. They are just "students" who, for whatever reason, are putting way too much pressure on themselves to join the adult world, perhaps that part of the adult world that some of them don't want to have any part of.

I believe you need a complete change in your approach to education because of it. It will be very challenging, and inspirational if you start NOW.

Posted by True Enjoyment of Life, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 11:40 am

How many of those who gave up their life on purpose were suffering do to lack of real enjoyment of the life they had here in this high pressure environment? How many of them were on Prozak or other mood altering drugs that sometime backfire into the psyche? Many of these drugs are known to lead people to do very sudden unreasonable, or violent acts against themselves or others.

Is anyone addressing what the inner needs are of these kids that creates a need for antidepressants?

There is a new form of thought presented on uTube, called the Fun theory.

How can we make it fun to not commit suicide when life gets challenging?

Lets brain storm about how to make it fun to remain here and handle the challenges at hand for these kids; of being a teen in these times at the high pressure schools in this area, how can we make it fun for teens to be in the families here?

I am not suggesting a looser hold, nor less supervision. Instead more inclusion, more invitations to participate in community events, more connection, in ways that intrigue and satisfy teens and lets them feel loved and included; wanted and valued.

When they are driven to fulfill a cause they feel strongly about, they rise to fulfill those roles. Such as planning rallies, and organizing other talents young adults to present what moves them deep in their soul and comes out in amazing poetry, music and dance.

Posted by Outraged, a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 11:41 am

Concerned, Agreed and EL are right. Stop the overhelming homework that begins in 1st grade and is out off control by the 3rd grade. Let the kids at an early age come home and learn to play outside. Get them away from computers. Listen to their frustrations. Stop pushing them. It is really very clear.

Posted by Ronz, a resident of the Palo Alto Orchards neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 11:48 am

You know, it would help a lot if Caltrain just slowed down between those two intersections. By slowing down to 20 mph, that would give the conductor greater time to respond; it would make the train less attractive as it becomes a slow moving vehicle (versus a fast guaranteed result); it's only for the those two intersections and the time delay would be less than a minute.

Posted by Midtown Mom, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 11:53 am

Have a CalTrain engineer who has been affected by this address Palo Alto's high school students. His experience at a minimum will get borderline students, contemplating suicide, to perhaps consider the effect of such an act on others.

Posted by Janice, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 11:59 am

"The problem is not the tracks-- it is us. This is a sick community in some ways"

EL,

Have you considered that there may be a genetic basis to your assessment? This areas has a disproportionately high level of intellectual types, and many of them are not very social. This does not mean that they are purposely anti-social, but they tend to be diffident, with an underlying anger, and reside in their own little worlds. It would not be surprising that they pass these traits onto their own children. Have studies been done to determine whether serious depression issues are inherited?

Posted by jimmy, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 12:01 pm

slowing down the train is a good idea

the crossing is a safety hazard period

make it safer

in legal terms its called an attractive nuisance

Posted by Concerned, a resident of Stanford, on Nov 2, 2009 at 12:10 pm

If you think these kids won't find another way to take their own life, you have a problem yourself. Kids will always find a way. If you guard that crossing, they will either go to a different one, or find another way to take their life. Again- you are looking to external factors to fix something that is very personal and internal. I love Susan's response above. What is wrong with being a mechanic? Or going to a junior college? What is wrong are the folks telling these kids that there is something wrong with that. How many kids have been extremely successful without going to Stanford or Harvard? And how many have failed going to those schools? Come on people, the problem is this community and parents, not the kids.

Posted by Observer, a resident of the South of Midtown neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 12:25 pm

Actually it has been proven that if you slow the train down, not to 20 but even slower, they will not go to another spot. The East Meadow crossing is the area of a ritual that has developed and if we take away the opportunity of enacting the ritual at that location the suicides will very likely stop. This doesn't mean we'll have zero suicides. It means the cluster of suicides at that spot will stop growing. We need Caltrain to stop the train before it enters that area and make sure the tracks are clear before it proceeds through at a slow speed. Right now we have people signing up to watch the crossing, another way to cut down on young people entering the tracks. If you'd like to be part of the solution,email hopepaloalto@gmail.com and sign up to watch the crossing. You can also message Caltrain asking them to stop the trains. While these measures will stop the suicides from occuring at East Meadow, we still need to tackle the problem of depression among our teens. This means having them all screened regularly and those in need treated for depression. Let's join the effort to stop teen suicides in our community and stop bickering about the Ivy league and homework. A dead teen has no need for college.

Posted by ReallyNow?, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 12:59 pm

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.] There are sooo many different ways to commit suicide, and these kids aren't stupid, you remove the tracks, and those that want to commit suicide will find other ways, it's like trying to stop the smoke from a fire by plugging up the chimney, the smoke will come out another way.

It's nice to blame something or someone else, but realize that you are the issue, we all are, every day we act all uptight and just plain rude to people just because we don't know them adds to that. Sure you can't trust everyone, but that's not an excuse, is this a city that rejects people because they are different, or embraces them for it? This worlds progress is based on embrassing differences to work for a common goal, stop being so barbaric, the people around you are the people that will let you progress.

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by Marin, a resident of the Charleston Meadows neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 1:12 pm

In addition to slowing down the train when it comes through town, Caltrain should create "kid catchers," sort of like the cattle catchers in the Old West. They would be placed at the front of the train and would pick up people on the tracks. They would fall back to a cushion. I know this idea sounds a little kooky, but cattle catchers work (or else why have they been around for so long).

Posted by Misha, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 1:13 pm

Officials are opining on the individual cases but has anyone even spoken with the parents?! With the children?! Lots of mouths flapping, not so many ears open to the parents or the students who have information that may be helpful. Stop lecturing and treating us as though we were the problems but instead ENGAGE US to help towards solutions.

Posted by Concerned, a resident of the South of Midtown neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 1:17 pm

Really now, You don't know me and I think you're being very rude. Have you done any research? Do you know anything about this? What is your solution, to stop being rude? How is this helpful? I suggest you do something about the problem yourself rather than criticizing the community in general. We can all find many things to disagree about but how does that stop the suicides? Sign up to watch the tracks, but only if you can be civil while doing it.

Posted by palyalum, a resident of another community, on Nov 2, 2009 at 1:17 pm

I went to Paly in the late nineties, and while i did very well academically and got into top schools across the country, my high school years were among the most unhappy of my life.

I found the problem isn't so much the pressure parents put on their kids to do well academically and get into name-brand schools, but the way that pressure is channeled among the kids themselves. My parents never pressured me to take AP's and get straight A's, but I found myself doing that because it seemed like the only way to gain the respect of many of my peers.

I remember one of the top students in my class walking up to me and congratulating me with a handshake after I got the best grade on a pop quiz. The quiz was only a few points and negligible to our overall grade, but that kid clearly felt 'beaten' and had to let me know. That was probably the most interaction I ever had with him during my high school career. He went on to Harvard.

Kids continually judge each other by their grades and define success by the colleges you gain acceptance to. It's an elitist form of peer pressure, spiraling out of control.

High school is a difficult time. Kids are so susceptible to what their peers think, and I still feel pain when I remember how naive and lost I was at Paly. I urge parents to convey to their kids that academic success does not define a person or their potential to live a happy and meaningful life. Similarly, parents need to teach their kids not to judge their peers with such elitism.

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 1:17 pm

The tracks don't cause the kids to be suicidal, but removing the means is part of a good anti-suicide strategy.

Yeah, on some level the adults around here are the problem--but that's a hard and nebulous thing to treat. Meantime, we need to do something now--and dealing with track access and monitoring the tracks at Meadow are a good start.

I also applaud the kids and teachers at Gunn working to create a gentler, more positive environment at their school. Even if I do find it sort of heartbreaking.

Posted by joe, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 1:39 pm

How about we just eliminate the trains altogether? That will work 100%.

Posted by wise guy, a member of the JLS Middle School community, on Nov 2, 2009 at 2:26 pm

thanks for the input wise guy...thats a great idea - just eliminate a crucial mode of transportation because a few depressed kids used it to end their lives. you want to eliminate the golden gate bridge while your at it? last time i checked, shutting down a major bridge like that hasn't worked out too well.

i agree with everyone that has mentioned that it is an internal problem that needs to be dealt with counseling, not security guards.

Posted by Capbreton, a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 2:43 pm

One million pounds of steel hitting you at even 5mph is every but as lethal as at 50mph -- do the math -- so the "slow down" suggestion is a complete non-starter.

Also, since no one on this is list is likely to solve teenage angst in our lifetimes, the only real attack point is to take the gun -- oops, the train -- out of the kids hands and completely eliminate the types of track crossings like the one at East Meadow. No European country would *ever* allow the type of deathtrap we see at this intersection.

In decades past only the odd freight train ran on the tracks, ofetn at 2am. Now, our kids have a web-published schedule of when the next "bullet" is going to be coming down the rails. Make Caltrain man-up and pay for undercrossings or flyovers with completely blocked pedestrian access the way they should have done on Day One and watch this problem go away.

Posted by Martin Engel, a resident of Menlo Park, on Nov 2, 2009 at 3:27 pm

Have you read all these comments? Not one is wrong even though it sounds like a litany of disagreements. All the suggestions have merit and should be pursued.

Except one. Those who advocate slowing down the trains are headed in the right direction, so to speak, but don't go far enough.

There is currently a major discussion permeating Palo Alto (as well as Atherton and Menlo Park) about putting trains underground, in tunnels. One tunnel for HSR, the other for Caltrain. That would leave only slow, Union Pacific freights on the surface three or four times each day. This is not the solution to preventing all suicides, of course, but it can reduce the rail-related mortality rate significantly. I consider that a major benefit among all the others.

Posted by Janice, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 3:29 pm

There suicides on the BART tracks. If we shut down all the train transportations, then we will have more traffic, and more deaths from same.

We need to begin to understand the underlying issues of major depression, and then treat those children who are susceptible. It should be a targeted approach, and not a shotgun approach aimed at the larger community. Shotgun apporaches are useless, and even counter productive.

Posted by Sick of the dumb down campaign, a resident of the Fairmeadow neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 3:30 pm

It's not about the pressure or the grades. There are some people who just can't get away from their ideology.

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 4:29 pm

wise guy,

We really need both--counseling and reduction of access to what's become a spot identified with suicide. It's not either/or.

Long-term, I wouldn't be surprised to see the trains go underground. But that's years away. We need something now.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 4:32 pm

If even half the money spent on space exploration were spent on making earth/ground transportation safer, it would be money much better spent.

Yes, space explorationn is exciting, does have scientific value and also gives us the thrill that the pioneers of old encountered, which is why I say don't get rid of it.

However, keeping rail transport as up to date as possible, with underground tracks and all the modern bells and whistles (of technology I mean) would make a bigger difference to the average man on the street.

If we can fund space exploration the way we have for the last 50 years, then we should be able to fund putting Caltrain and any other dangerous railroad tracks underground through urban areas and making them safer to cross in more rural areas. The system used by Caltrain is antiquated as anyone who has used modern travel outside the US can testify to.

So for this reason, we should be getting federal money, not California money, or Caltrain money, or even our own local money to fund the tunnels. This should become a national issue, not a Peninsula issue.

Posted by resident, a resident of the Charleston Meadows neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 4:37 pm

Concered, Agreed, El you all are right.There is nothing to do with the tracks. They are very easy to go and use thats all.We need to let our children open up their mind and talk.But we do not give them that opertunity.We love them ,we care for them but we do not understand that every one works to their own ability. Only Ivy leaug schools do not bring the sccses in our lives. Steave jobs and bill gates are the living exampels.Pearents ,wise up.

Posted by DZ, a member of the Terman Middle School community, on Nov 2, 2009 at 5:06 pm

Concered, our children have spoken: fix the tracks and stop cheap talking. Time of easy talking has long gone. Now, its is time for action.

Listen to our kids...

Posted by S, a resident of the Triple El neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 6:32 pm

Can the track crossing be closed, as in sealed off completely, during non commute "after hours"? We can refine what after hours mean as we gain experience.

Also, what about installing video surveillance there?

Posted by MeMe, a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 6:52 pm

I'm sorry, but removing or undergrounding the tracks in an attempt to prevent teen suicides is the most naive thing I've ever heard. Those tracks have been there since the 19th century and there was never a suicide problem until just recently. What has changed? Not the trains and not the tracks. If someone is bent on taking their life they will find a way.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 7:38 pm

The crossings do need to be fixed because they are not safe. There was an accident in Redwood City a few weeks ago where a man was killed because he was caught on the tracks due to emergency vehicles causing traffic to stop. There have been other fatalities in Palo Alto at the crossings at Charleston/Meadow due to people getting caught on the tracks. There are also suicides.

The grade crossings on Caltrain are antiquated, they have not been modernized. In the 19th century, there was not the volume of trains or the volume of cars, or the volume of pedestrian and bicycles. These outdated half barriers are in dire need of being brought into the 21st century.

That said, it is just too easy for someone to commit suicide. If an unhappy person was looking for an easy way out, we are providing it for them. Make it more difficult and they may find another means but it may be much harder for them to find another means and in the meantime they just may change their minds.

We have no idea who the teenager was who attempted suicide but was prevented by his mother. Hopefully that child is now getting the help needed and possibly is really happy that the attempted was thwarted. We can only hope that this was the case, but many who do not succeed become inspirational help to others. I heard of one survivor from the Golden Gate Bridge who said that he changed his mind half way down when it was too late.

Making it more difficult must help, particularly in cluster situations like we have here.

Posted by concerned mom, a resident of the Charleston Meadows neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 7:59 pm

I am happy to know that Gunn has agreed to administer the PROJECT CORNERSTONE'S Survey of Developmental Assets. I think that is the first thing we need to do as a community. I attended a talk by Project cornerstone "BUILDING AN ASSET RICH PALO ALTO" , which unfortunately was attended by only 4 moms ,simply because the title was misleading. The community did not realize that it was the only talk they needed to attend, because it lays down how we can build more assets in our kids to make them resilient. It shifts the blame away from kids,teachers, school - it challenges us as a parent community to reach out to the teens, know the names of the children in our neighborhood, say hello to them and collectively look out for our kids. I would urge the schools in Palo Alto to administer the PROJECT CORNERSTONE survey ASAP so that we can see where we need help to start building our community. Please let us not loose any more time we have precious lives we need to save.

Posted by Kmom, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 10:13 pm

I am very sad that these students have died. I don't think I will ever understand why. But our kids spend most of their time at school and what goes on there is not always so "warm and fuzzy" I know students who were kicked out for not being academically able to keep up. These kids didn't receive the support of the teachers or the administration. One had suffered the loss of her mother, the other suffered from learning difficulties. So many kids suffer in some way during their teenage years and it can be short-lived or long term, but no matter the length of suffering, our high schools need to find a way to support them and keep them in school rather than casting them out. I am appalled by the treatment that these two students received. But I say this,not to complain about our schools but to shed some light on those of you who think that parents are the cause of teenage depressions;they are often the ones that are offering the support and the help. When my teenager was struggling in a class, I instructed him to talk to the teacher and when that didn't help, I told him to seek out the department head and then his counselor etc. By the end of the time he had absolutely no confidence that he was going to get help. We ended up at an outside tutor, whom the guidance counselor advised against and my son was able to get the help he needed. Come on. This is ridiculous and yet our kids have to deal with this and more every single day. Don't blame the parents. Most parents I know do all they can to help their kids. They aren't enabling them in their depression or unhappiness, they are raising them with principals and morals and inspiring them to have ambition to become what they want. I like the idea of helping our kids become more resilient as they go through their teenage years. They could use a course in resiliency: a how to survive a C or worse, a how to survive a break-up, a how to survive an argument with a friend, a how to survive a teacher yelling at you, etc. Now that would be a great course!

Posted by Mike Hunt, a resident of the Fairmeadow neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 10:35 pm

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by Concerned Parernt, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 10:54 pm

I agree with those that have stated that "we have found the problem and the problem is us." The only thing that develops in the dark (well, in the old pre-digital camera days that is) is negatives. We have been unwilling to shine the light on everything in our community/society that is less than perfect. After all, we live in "Perfect Palo Alto" or as some people like to call it "Shallow Alto." If we don't "uncover" we will never have a chance of to "recover." I have seen too much hand wringing with no solid solutions or help suggestions offered. Let's get out of denial and start LISTENING TO OUR KIDS Hello???????? are they not the "real experts" in living the Palo Alto lifestyle as a young person? (witness the treatment the young people received at the last evening panel....second class citizens behind the "experts") Think about this please.....

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 10:54 pm

MeMe,

There's been quite a bit of research that shows if you cut off access to a suicide spot, the overall suicide rate drops. People don't just find somewhere else or another way. Suicide has an impulsive component. Knowing where to go and knowing someone else has done it that way offers a weird form of temptation to someone suicidally depressed.

Read up on the subject before assuming that blocking access to a site that's suddenly become a focus for a group of suicides is "naive". It's criminal not to act in this case.

In general,

Don't assume that there's only one factor that caused a suicidal depression--it's multiple factors--and that's why it's worth looking at the school situation, the trains, and screening for depression.

I don't think you can rule out the parents in some cases--particularly with this young a group. Parental pressure makes our schools what they are. I think, however, that part of the equation is the most difficult one to solve.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 10:58 pm

While you're looking at grade crossings, look at Churchill, too. What a mess.

Posted by Noel, a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on Nov 2, 2009 at 11:30 pm

It's time to put some kind of people catcher on the front of all trains. The tracks cannot be made safe and the cost of burying or elevating the tracks is prohibitive and would take many years. A people catcher would not have to have a 100% survival rate to be effective. People will stop standing in front of trains if they know there is a good chance they will survive in damaged condition.

Posted by Pathetic, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 12:57 am

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by Walter_E_Wallis, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 4:05 am
Walter_E_Wallis is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

Not surprising, it is all the fault of lawyers. No one wants to consider making people catchers because even a 99% success rate would not protect the maker against ruinous litigation.

Posted by Steve Raney, a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 8:00 am

Here's a specification for a "people catcher" design project:

Web Link

Collisions between trains and pedestrians are also a problem for the Amtrak Capitol Corridor train in the East Bay, and for trains in other parts of the US.

I've sent out requests to a number of designers (Stanford D-School, IDEO, Mindtribe, Pasadena Art Center School of Design auto designers, national rail safety committees, etc), but haven't motivated anyone to sketch out a possible solution yet. It's still a bit early in the process.

There is some question as to whether a feasible solution is possible, given the speed of the trains. And yet, airbags work well.

Posted by mom, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 8:59 am

kmom,

the two students that were kicked out may end up better off. A school system that has no flexibility for any failures, is the kind that is raising automatons. Big schools are like that, and I hope those kids end up in smaller schools.

Our schools are not only big, but they also have an implicit, actually also explicit, favor towards high achievement, the "winners" are celebrated. We have a few winners, and the rest are wannabes, and then of course are the losers.

The whole thing must be toxic even for teachers. Time to celebrate the losers, they are the healthy ones in this picture.

Posted by paparent, a resident of the Fairmeadow neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 9:19 am

While some parents put too much stress on their kids, I think most parents here try their best to be supportive in good ways. The larger problem is what is happening in our high schools:

1. What would be an A in another high school can be a C here. I have known students who received an A in Mt View in AP English but only made a 3 or 2 on the Eng. AP final test. But in PA, that can be the reverse -- a student gets a C grade but makes a 4/5 on the final AP test. Some teachers seem to think only so many students in a tough AP class can get an A or B. They have tricky tests to keep the numbers down to make less A's or B's. This is not fair and very stressful.

2. Very able students are made to jump through hoops to get in some of the difficult classes and some do not make it in.

3. For some classes, students are expected to teach themselves over summer or even during the school year so getting a tutor is necessary. Private schools prepare for the next level year by year.

4. The UC's have become very difficult to get into. Students are expected to take AP's, have very high grades, participate in activities, and perhaps most important, do community service. They are expected to be perfect adults in their teens! No wonder this is stressful -- and it's too much. Should parents encourage their children not to try for the UC's? Don't take AP's? That sounds like to accept being dumbed down -- which is stressful too and wrong. Change these requirements and go to a lottery system if necessary for getting into the UC's.

Clearly many students are very stressed out, and the above suggestions for change are doable today. That would be a good start in helping our students have a solid academic preparation but still let them be teenagers with some down time to be themselves. There is far too much emphasis on trying to build a resume for the Universities. That's where real change is needed.

Posted by mom, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 9:53 am

paparent,

I agree with everything you said, but your line

"They are expected to be perfect adults in their teens!" sums it up.

and we only celebrate the perfect teens. The perfect teens probably don't even want to be perfect, they work so hard at being that, it's not their fault.

the thread is pretty much that everyone is questioning the "winners" and the wannabes but what can the schools do about it? Maybe we can have "C" Honor rolls. Actually better idea,

Colleges and Universities should have quotas for B students, and C students. And for low SATs. Enough of the academic inbreeding.

Posted by fishbits, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 11:24 am

Why are you all so polarized about this?

It's not that complex:

Make the tracks safer (which is not the problem, but a symptom that is easy to reach)...

then continue the conversation about what is going on.

It's well beyond Palo Alto's influence culturally - it also deals with this recession, and how the money problems for families is compounding the teens normal ennui.

Web Link

kids are stressed for so many reasons, and suicide is rampant all over... not just because of proximity to tracks.

Please... it's always more complex than a knee jerk reaction. It is many things... not just *this* or *that*.

Our inability to see clearly and calmly rationalize the issue makes it so we create these bullshit dialectical tensions that do nothing but complicate the issue by making it seem simpler than it is.

Posted by MeMe, a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 1:54 pm

<< There's been quite a bit of research that shows if you cut off access to a suicide spot, the overall suicide rate drops. People don't just find somewhere else or another way. Suicide has an impulsive component. Knowing where to go and knowing someone else has done it that way offers a weird form of temptation to someone suicidally depressed.

Read up on the subject before assuming that blocking access to a site that's suddenly become a focus for a group of suicides is "naive". It's criminal not to act in this case. >>

Since you've already read up on it, why don't you post a link or some other reference to the research you cite?

As I said, the tracks have been there since the 1860s and this intersection was never a suicide magnet until the past year or so. Anyone care to speculate as to why?

Posted by anonymous, a resident of the Ventura neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 3:44 pm

We were witnesses to the third suicide. The tracks are the problem. They are attractive on an impulse because a teen doesn't have any other way to commit suicide that is 100% guaranteed. The crossing at Meadow is too dark. Even with the trees cut down, it's easy to access the tracks and to hide until the train comes. Please, Caltrain, put spotlights up and down the track. Citizen patrols? I'm afraid to cross the tracks now, the only reasonable way I can get home from work. It's clear that there will be more suicides, another child hidden in the dark by the tracks. I don't want to be there another time.

Posted by anonymous II, a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 4:55 pm

Thanks anonymous. Attractive on impulse...well said. I witnessed a suicide at East Meadow a couple of years ago and it was horrifying.

Meme, you're right that the basic set up of a gigantic train barrelling down Alma at grade level has not changed since the 19th century. However, we don't have to accept it just because it's there. I'd like to think that our safety standards have improved since then! Not to mention the increase in population density.

Posted by Observer, a resident of the South of Midtown neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 5:27 pm

I'm very sorry for anyone who witnessed any of these incidents. I agree that 'attractive on impulse' is a good way of saying it. I believe that if the train went through slowly it would take away a lot of the impulsive charge that comes with this. Also, having people there watching would further lessen the charm of doing this. If I try and think like a teenager and put myself in their shoes, both those things would have a deterrent influence. Who wants to wait around for the train to maybe reach you when the whole point is the speed and the certainty? Who wants some mom watching and probably shouting about what your mother would say? If this even gets someone to put it off another day it increased the chance of a change of heart.

Posted by paly mom, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 10:38 pm

I agree with many of these comments. We don't have all of the answers about why this is happening, but it is likely due to many factors. The solution will need to be multifactorial as well. Guarding the tracks and slowing down the trains would help in the short term as this particular crossing has obviously become a ritualistic site.

As to the comments that this has never happened before, I have seen multiple postings in response to previous stories that it has indeed happened before, and has happened in clusters.

Meanwhile, Parents (and kids) should not forget the child's pediatrician or family doctor. They are trained to recognize and treat depression in teens and this may be easier to arrange (and less stigmatized) than a consultation with a psychiatrist. I have been in touch with some of the doctors at the PAMF and they are ready and willing to help.

Posted by Communication Mom, a resident of Atherton, on Nov 3, 2009 at 11:11 pm

One of the things that struck me as I drove by the train the other day is a sign that says something like "suicide help." on it. The sign was lonely, official, and cold. Why can't the community take over some of the land around the train area and turn it into a warm, personalized display of stories - of people who thought that their lives were terrible but lived through it - have come out the other side? Why not have a revolving display of someone who was broke, who flunked out, whose parents lost their home, who got pregnant, whatever... and a description from them of what they did? And then why not have a bulletin board of personal letters from other students and residents offering specific hands out - and contact information. We certainly have the technology to set up an easy-access bulletin board. You could have names of people to text (that IS how the kids communicate nowadays, so that should be what's offered.)

I feel quite strongly that an official sign, admonishing people that there's help out there is NOT helpful. I liked the idea about having people from all walks of life do presentations, also. In general, happiness, or *balance* outreach is a great idea.

Finally, I think we should look at The American Ethical Society, whose slogan is "deed before creed." They are a community-based organization that spans religious and nonreligious and works to create a better world. In the olden days, a religion would step in here to help but we're all too politically correct for that here. But wouldn't it be nice to have a community organization - a layer of our community - that supported ALL of us? (I have nothing to do with this org. Just saw it on Twitter. :-)

Good luck to all. I hope that some of the sparkle, joy, and fun that the creative and bright people of the silicon valley have will somehow reach out to convince these young people that life, though difficult, is ultimately awesome.

Posted by Linda V, a resident of the College Terrace neighborhood, on Nov 3, 2009 at 11:16 pm

Security Guards every night wouldn't cost much and are a good idea. However, they should be warm and friendly, perhaps even trained in talking with depressed people. Maybe they can help steer kids in need to places that can help them.

Posted by need clues, a resident of Mountain View, on Nov 3, 2009 at 11:51 pm

"City Council member Larry Klein asked school officials last week for disclosure of "group data" on the lives of Palo Alto's four suicide victims while preserving confidentiality for individual students."

I honestly think that Larry Klein's approach is the best. Without knowing the clues, we are all working in the dark.

Also, thanks to Stanford for helping out the community.

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Nov 4, 2009 at 12:03 am

MeMe,

If you look in the other suicide threads you'll see a link and actually a paste of an article in the Merc last week or so that summed up the basic research. There have been some interesting studies--Golden-Gate bridge suicides crossing other bridges to commit suicide at the Golden Gate.

As to what's happening now and why--look up contagion suicide or cluster suicide. In some ways, it's an extreme form of misery wanting company.

As others have mentioned, there's an ongoing issue with suicide on the CalTrain tracks. Right now we have a particularly horrific cluster, but if you pay attention, you'll see mention of track suicides several times a year up and down the peninsula. There was one shortly before the first Gunn one last year--a young woman.

The contagion's what's unusual, though there's plenty of precedence for that. I hope we've seen the last of it.

Posted by Local Mom, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Nov 4, 2009 at 12:06 am

I had heard from a psychiatrist working with students at another high school district that the students are considering that suicides by train are a form of "enlightenment!" I'm wondering if that is the basis of the "cluster" of suicides at the Meadown / Alma tracks. Tipping Point mentions clusters as a romantic notion that catches on for its oddity. Now, I'm trying to remember what the way to discourage the cluster of incidents was... anyone else know or have read the book in that section?

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Nov 4, 2009 at 12:36 am

Local Mom,

A form of "enlightenment"! [Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.] It's about as enlightened as murder. Self-murder is the old term for it, I sometimes think we should bring it back just to remind people that it is an act of violence.

As for discouraging them--don't romanticize the deed or the victims. Don't report details. Cut off access to the preferred spot.

Though at the same time of not reporting details, the recommendation is to report things about the victims that don't make them seem like they were in good mental health--so revealing a history of addiction or depression is recommended.

Do let kids talk about the issue and how they feel.

The clusters do seem to burn themselves out

Posted by parent, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 4, 2009 at 11:34 am

Ohlone Par,

I'm not sure if suicide is violent or an act of violence. How does a person not otherwise known for violent acts commit an act of violence, or are they just caught in a violent situation and are victims of it? One would hope that the fact that suicide is violent and dangerous to the health of other people, that it would make one consider other choices to deal with the pain of depression. But that's if you catch the depression early enough and can get the person to get better.

Along with preventing clusters and dealing with the tracks, aiming for better mental health matters.

The opposite of depression is being happy and well balanced, we need to help teens understand what the obstacles to happiness can be. Top of the list has to be lack of sleep, lack of outlets for releasing pressure, lack of interaction with people - real people not social media digital entries.

I hear Facebook is used to do homework, that is insane. Nobody should need to be on Facebook to do homework.

Posted by Mayfield Child, a resident of the Green Acres neighborhood, on Nov 4, 2009 at 2:28 pm

FORGET ABOUT collecting those A's and B's without a follow up.......What is needed is a class that brings in people from the community for some REAL TIME- in your face- discussions.....AND that includes the town drunk (smelling from a few nights on the bench), town drug addict with his tracks showing (and eyes wide open, nose running and body starting to shake from needing his next fix)..........

I graduated from high school here in Palo Alto and left, not knowing much of ANY of the above realistic problems that OTHER people have or what it leads to, what impact it has.

How many others of you can say that you KNEW all the facts??????

Posted by palo alto mom, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Nov 4, 2009 at 3:23 pm

Dear Parent -

The reality of a many HS students life is

Far too little sleep

No time for outlets to release pressure (aka fun)

Interaction with people is limited to class, sports, community service or school club (all useful for building your "resume" for college apps)

No time for friends (yes kids really do skip dances, football games, hanging out with friends cause they are too busy with the above and homework)

Facebook is used to do homework - its even how some teachers communicate with their students

Posted by parent, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 4, 2009 at 5:18 pm

Have class sizes gotten so big that teachers can't talk with students face to face?

Facebook for students to communicate with the teachers???!!!

Digital health over mental health.

on that note, I will sign off

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Nov 4, 2009 at 9:42 pm

parent,

Yes, suicide is an act of violence. You are killing a person. We forget this in a way because the perpetrator and the victim are the same person, but it's a terrible thing that's happening.

Suicide is not simply an act of severe depression, it is often one of anger. Part of the intent can be to punish the survivors. There can be an "I'll show them!" aspect to it. What's missing, of course, is the recognition that you really won't be there to see any of it. But then suicide's not a real logical action.

I think, in general, that no one's guaranteed a happy life. Things do happen and some of us get it more in the neck than others. So for me, I think the issue is how do you teach resilience? How do you instill a sense of competence about the world--that you *can* cope, that you *can* take care of yourself when it seems like your life is falling apart?

So, yes, enough sleep, but also our kids need enough space to develop a sense of self-direction. School becomes the end-all, be-all for these kids and when there are problems there, I think they seem larger than they are. I think there's a real loss of a sense of proportion here. And, no, it's not helped by parents who frankly have the same kind of issues. Far too many people around here measure their worth by their success--they are their jobs; they are their children's achievements.

I look at the kids around here--and academically they're ahead of where my peers and I were at the same age. At the same time, though, my fellow students and I were a bit tougher and more capable in a real-world way. College wasn't a crapshoot the way it is now. The good students went to the good colleges, the lesser students went to less prestigious ones. We all had a pretty good idea ahead of time of where we'd be likely to go. Yes, some of us disappointed our parents, but it wasn't the end of the world, in part, because our parents weren't defined by us in the same way. I suppose, in part, because they weren't make the same kind of sacrifice that we now make to live in that rare district with the good schools.

I think many parents around here feel that they sacrifice a lot for their kids--and the kids feel the burden of having to measure up to that sacrifice. It's really an incredible strain on them.

Posted by student, a member of the Gunn High School community, on Nov 5, 2009 at 12:15 am

Its true that when contemplating suicide, a person does have that bit of the "I'll show them" thing. This is really awkward to say but when I need to think about it, I just fantasize about attempting and failing and the following shame and support. I do often think about how each person would react. I will never actually do it in fear of surviving and having to see reactions so I really dont actually know.

Posted by wondering, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 5, 2009 at 12:25 am

I've been wondering. What if there was a place available for struggling teens to just "be"... like a safe haven... where they could unplug, even be anonymous, and not have any expectations foisted upon them... where they could just take a breather in a safe place of calm. Would that be helpful and would teens actually use it?

any thoughts?

Posted by Paly mom, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Nov 5, 2009 at 2:27 am

To 'student',

Thank you for your brave comments. I am glad that you have found a strategy that has kept you safe. However, I would like for you to be even safer. Please find a trusted adult in your life; parent, teacher, aunt, doctor, etc. and let them know that you are having these thoughts. And please add "because I will not always feel this way and there will be great things ahead, even though I can't picture them right now" to your reasons for not doing it. Make this your mantra, because it is true! Please write back and let me know that you are doing these things.

Posted by MIdtown parent, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Nov 5, 2009 at 6:52 am

To A student,

As a parent, I feel very very sad and frustrated every time a child dies. I am trying to do something about it by watching the tracks. Please remember that the rest of the world cares. Right now you feel bad, but it will pass I assured you. My son, almost had one of those moments, he went trough a lot. He was able to let me know how bad he felt and we were able to help him. Please find someone who can help you too.

Posted by Capbreton, a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood, on Nov 5, 2009 at 8:58 am

MeMe,

We're not in the 19th century anymore where, maybe, there was one train a day on the tracks and never at a known time. Now you have a published schedule on the Web showing multiple trains per hour. Insanely easy. Max wait is, what, 30 minutes for the next million-pound bullet?

When Caltrain took over they should not have been allowed to run scheduled service without converting the crossings first so that pedestrians could not access them, period.

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Nov 5, 2009 at 6:47 pm

Hey student,

Yeah, I think you get what I'm saying here. Depression often has a lot of anger tied into it. In part, you're depressed because you feel helpless--and so naturally you get angry at the people you feel have power over you or have let you down or aren't paying attention.

Looking back, one thing that helped me (and I had the kind of adolescence where people seem to look at me as a bit of a freak show for wandering about as an adult in one piece) was that I would think about what I'd be able to do as an adult. For whatever reason, I had just enough faith in myself to think that I could make a better life for myself. And I was right. Not because I've done everything I wanted (though I'm still trying), but because I could, indeed, control more of it. There are things I just don't put up with as an adult--and no one really expects me to.

My sense of you from your posts is that there's a creative bent to you that needs expression. Not sure what form it takes--but make space for it.

Posted by ReallyNow?, a resident of the Green Acres neighborhood, on Nov 6, 2009 at 2:38 pm

wow, some people can't take critisism?

Posted by Sharon, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Nov 6, 2009 at 3:07 pm

Teen depression should be screened by a qualified MD who can determine the severity, supervise and monitor the appropriate medical and, if indicated, adjunctive therapy.

A physician is qualified to prescribe and oversee a comprehensive treatment plan.

Severe depression is a very serious matter, particularly for teens.

Social network sites etc, that appeal to those under 18 have a moral, ethical and probably legal responsibility to monitor postings on teen suicide and to heed and actively seek out expert medical advice on this matter.

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Nov 6, 2009 at 4:38 pm

Actually, lots of physicians don't have a clue about mental illness.

As for social networking sites--huge First Amendment issues here. So far, the legal rulings I've seen (I'm some years out of date on this) have not held carriers responsible for user-generated content.

Parents need to monitor their own kids' use of sites.