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PTA forum packed after latest student death
Experts: Teach kids reslience, and to get help if needed

by Chris Kenrick
Palo Alto Weekly Staff

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 9:42 am

The question was asked of the experts "How can we teach our kids to deal with disappointments in their life after they have been taught from early years to dream high, work hard, and you will achieve all you want?" The "experts" completely ignored the question and kept on with what they wanted to say.

Posted by SmartyGuy, a resident of the Community Center neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:02 am

Suicide isn't rational, it's not a logical conclusion to the person's question of "how do I deal with all this stress, should I kill myself instead of go to Stanford?" (If they choose Cal, they should).

As they said, "the young person has been struggling usually for over a year with some kind of psychological difficulty, most commonly a depressive disorder".

This means they have an untreated MEDICAL disorder that requires treatment, not more hand-holding or career advice or touchy-feely advice that makes YOU feel good.

They need to know, that suicidal feelings are not normal. That if you are depressed or feeling suicidal, you need to tell someone. That if someone tells you they feel this way, you need to take action.

And, if you tell someone, they WON'T lock you up or send you away. And no one will know.

If someone has the overwhelming desire to chop their hand off, you don't say "gee, they must have too much expected from them", you say "that person needs to talk to a doctor."

Both situations are not rational and require trained assistance.

Posted by Paly parent, a member of the Palo Alto High School community, on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:09 am

I like hearing from students who make straighforward, natural statements like Chloe. [Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by parent, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:18 am

Resident,

maybe not directly but someone on the panel talked about the need to actively problem solve with kids. To take disappointments and work with them so that in the future you have something to look back on, something that you did to overcome a situation.

but your comment brings up the point that kids today are not only victims of isolation courtesy of technology (which robs both them, and their parents of real connections as Rey explained) but this is also the sheltered generation.

the big disconnect seems to come from being masters of the universe when they are young and cute, and can do no wrong, and have less homework, with no texting or Facebook, to when they are older, dealing with reality. The disconnect between expectations and reality is manageable by the parents, but kids can't be expected to handle this alone. Again, the media and tech further contribute to distortions of what matters in life.

Rey brings up valuable insight about what they are observing from teens they are working with.

we need more time with our kids, they need more time with each other, but all they seem to be doing is trying to get into college.

WHat I found odd is that an upside mentioned by a panelist is how kids today are the most socially conscious today - is that their job? I don't think it's an upside. I think it's overzealous teachers and parents that want to save the world pushing and pressuring kids to do the same and build resumes. Leave them alone, let them have fun while they are young, and they can be socially conscious later.

Posted by parent, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:32 am

SmartGuy,

what you are talking about is emergency treatment, not preventative care.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:40 am

Parent, thanks for pointing out that part of the answer, it isn't what I was expecting, but it is true.

I also agree with you about our kids being more socially conscious. I am not sure if it is really true or if they appear to say what is expected of them. The fact that they need to do various amounts of community service for school credit means that they do see the need, but they are often doing it for the wrong reason and it becomes another item on the list of things to do for college acceptance.

I thought that it was sad to hear what the middle schooler said about having to give up dance because of homework load, and I wonder if she said that because she thought it was what was expected to be said. She said as a counter that she was doing a school play, but school plays typically last a few weeks rather than a dance class which can go on for the whole year. Having to give up exercise and fun for homework is not the sort of thing we expect our middle schoolers to feel the need to do.

Likewise, the high schooler mentioned how things like wearing the right clothes was important amongst her friends in middle school, but in high school they realise that it isn't very important. I am glad that they do go through this attitude before graduating school, but it really is true that for some of our teens wearing the right clothes from the right store is more important to them so that they fit in with their friends rather than any or all academic stress that we believe is there. Sometimes it is these little things that cause some of the biggest problems.

Posted by SmartyGuy, a resident of the Charleston Meadows neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:48 am

Parent,

It is both emergency treatment and preventive care. People are suicidal for a LONG time before they actually do something about it, talking to their parents about stress probably isn't going to help.

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:52 am

Smartguy

You are not listening (or reading) the question, just like the experts last night. What you say is completely right when your child gets to that stage. What is being discussed is preventing a child from getting there.

Posted by SmartyGuy, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 11:01 am

Resident,

And the point is YOU CAN'T prevent them from getting to that stage. (ok, theoretically you can, but hang in there and listen).

- You will never know if your efforts are successful or not, people don't talk about suicide

- People talk about suicide like it's a natural and rational decision to make in the face of stress, it is not.

- This is a suicide cluster, it brings people who have been thinking about suicide (potentially for years) out of the woodwork and shows them it's possible. It doesn't mean people are any more or less suicidal than normal

- Talking about prevention makes YOU feel good, it doesn't help suicidal youth

- Suicide isn't going away, and YOU aren't going to be the one to do it.

The only thing you can do, is catch it early and let people with minor suicidal ideation know that something can be done.

Otherwise, you better hope they created some great art/literature/music before they do it. If they don't, then killing themselves is a waste.

Posted by michael james, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 11:16 am

most kids think if they seek help they will be "turned in " to police and or a stain on there record

we need to let them know there is free anonymous help available all the time

this group has had much success Web Link

Posted by SmartyGuy, a resident of the Community Center neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 11:19 am

Michael James, thank you.

Posted by parent, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 11:20 am

SmartGuy,

I agree with the cluster piece, but some of us, "idiot parents" also want to deal with how to make kids resilient and to have some other tools that protect them from suicidal ideation in the first place.

this is not mutually exclusive from your rant. this was a PTA forum, not a smart guys conference.

Posted by SmartyGuy, a resident of the Greater Miranda neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 11:41 am

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by Granpa Bill, a member of the Gunn High School community, on Oct 22, 2009 at 12:00 pm

My grandson is a freshman at Gunn. I attended the PTA forum last night, sitting patiently to partake in an open discussion that didn’t materialize. When asked for written questions, I wrote essentially the following on a card and listened for a response. There was none.

I suggest we consider a different approach from the cerebral, academic, and clinical taken at the forum. How in line with our real human nature is it to forcibly keep the entire population of youth inside ‘caves’ (read classrooms) during most of the light of day? They are full of bottled-up energy, curiosity, strength, and imagination. The school system, the city of Palo Alto, and the education system assumes they can focus that energy on math, writing, history, biology, etc. read from a book. A major function of the system, let’s face it, is control. We don’t want all that bottled up energy to blossom, because we don’t know where it will go. It might be disruptive. The students might run around the hills, chase animals, climb trees, turn over rocks to find snakes and scorpions, start building tree houses in parks, and return to stone-age behavior.

I really don’t know.

I am surprised that so many students do sublimate all their blossoming energies, sit in their hard chairs day after day, and accept that the payoff for all their self control will arrive later.

Posted by Jonathan, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 12:01 pm

Well, one way to make them resilient is to let them experience disappointment when they're younger and learn, preferably from intelligent adults, that disappointments are (like it or not) a natural part of life. I'm amazed for example that sports don't like to keep score for young kids. It's not the score that's the problem. It's the reaction to it or to be more precise the adults' reaction. Kids tap into that reaction. I worry parents unwittingly project their own fears on to their kids...

Posted by SmartyGuy, a resident of the Charleston Meadows neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 12:09 pm

Granpa Bill,

While I think you may have lost the plot, you might have a point.

Posted by Anon., a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 12:17 pm

I heard a statistic recently having to do with a poll taken about friendship. The question was, how many real friends, confidants do people have? 30 years ago, the average response was that people had about 3 confidants ... 3 people they could share anything with.

The contemporary response these days is 0.

Thanks for the processing of our society into a sort of factory, the breaking of the family into industrial work units, and the prevalence of divorce we are putting a social species, human beings, into virtual solitary mental cages, just as surely as Harry Harlow did physically when he experimented on monkeys.

This has happened over time with distractions enough to make it imperceptible, but we are slowly rotting many sectors of our society ... in my opinion. Maybe our leaders think this is good for us overall to have a weak and dependent population always fighting among themselves, but there is something really bad happening in America with the disconnection of people and transformation of people into assembly line products.

Human being were not meant for that kind of life, and so it will be mysterious to us when they do not thrive living under it.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 12:17 pm

Jonathon

You get my point exactly. The system that we are living in protects our kids from disappointment at an early age and promotes the idea that dreams will come true if you just work hard enough. We give trophies to all members of all teams, don't take scores in sports, invite all the class to the birthday party, put smiley faces on all work even if it contains lots of wrong answers to show appreciation of the effort, give prizes to all and consider graduating 5th grade an achievement.

At some stage in their teens, most kids start realising that they have been deceived and they don't have the tools to deal with a poor grade they didn't expect, not getting onto the right sports team, not getting the lead in the school play or voted in for class president. They have heard that they should do their best and they will succeed all their lives and when that doesn't work, when their best isn't good enough, they despair because they think this is because they didn't work hard enough or because there is something wrong with them.

Then sometimes they get a poor grade and the parent calls the teacher to try and rectify it, or a parent puts money into buying equipment for the sport in the hopes of getting the child into the team (it happens) or other methods of parent preventing the child from learning how to deal with the disappointment.

We have to start letting the kids realise that life is not fair, that we as parents have problems and they will too but that together we can work them out. But working them out doesn't necessarily mean getting things the way they expected them.

Hillary Clinton, politics aside, is a great example of this attitude. She didn't get what she wanted (becoming President) but she took a different role and is putting her efforts into that. (Please don't look at this from a political point of view but rather as an example our kids can understand of making 2nd best become the better thing).

I wish more of this type of help was discussed last night, but sadly the experts felt that answering this question wasn't necessary.

Posted by Palo Alto Mom, a resident of the Greenmeadow neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 12:36 pm

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by Anon., a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 12:43 pm

Are these "experts" just the lubrication of the same machine that runs over American citizens in most other ways? How else do they get paid but to say what people are supposed to think? Sorry to make this political, as someone asked not to do, but we toss off our casualties in this country with health care and do not make the same commitment other countries do to their people, because of the very way American society exists.

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 12:46 pm

Depression has more than one cause. It may be a medical disorder--i.e. caused by chemical imbalance and responsive to medication. Or it may not be. Environment *is* a factor--it can be a huge one. And, yes, suicide is the lethal outcome in some cases.

So three things really--preventing depression--and that is where helping create a healthier school environment and good parenting techniques come in. Won't do everything, but there's a variation in how much depression and suicide a particular culture or group has. Environment matters.

B--dealing with depression. Depression, the clinical sort, is quite common. It's not always recognizable as such--and in kids it manifests differently than it does in adults. Even if you recognize some of the symptoms it is, frankly, an incredibly difficult thing to bring up with a parent. And there's a lot of denial on everyone's part.

Depression isn't always what you'd call a mental illness. It is, say, a rational response to finding you have a fatal illness. The issue becomes one of how do you keep from spiraling downward. And,yes, here's where talking and friends and not being isolated--yep, the touchy-feely stuff--can help.

C--suicidal ideation and attempts. This is bad stuff--not all attempts are alike. Some involve making sure no one knows and putting on a happy face. Others have warning signs. Contrary to what Smartyguys says, some of them are pretty impulsive acts--as in there have been ongoing issues, but there's suddenly an abrupt suicidal impulse--all of the sudden driving into a tree seems like the thing to do.

The suicidal impulse can and does pass--same with depression. This is why physical barriers to er, popular spots are effective--it reduces the fixation. The problem we have now is that depressed kids having a suicidal impulse know where to go. They may even feel drawn to it or feel that they should do it. They may want to live, but feel that they must die. It's pretty horrific. So people-catchers, barriers, whatever--I'd like to see something.

Posted by NotSoSmartGuy, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 12:48 pm

There is a great deal that can be done to divert potentially suicidal youth from getting to the point that they form a plan to commit suicide and try to execute it. Grandpa Bill makes some good points about the nature of the population we're talking about here- about their energy, worldview and capacity to understand the world with anything approaching adult perspective.

Despite SG's assertions to the contrary, suicide has been around as long as people have been curious about what is on the other side of the curtain. It would seem that while society may deem it to aberrant behavior, by its very statistical existence it is an (albeit unfortunate) part of the human life cycle. Viewed through that prism, suicide ceases to be a taboo, but rather is seen as an undesirable outcome to an often predictable set of circumstances.

Life (for most people in the world) is full of setbacks. One of the wonders of Palo Alto is that it has been home to so many people who have blinders to setbacks and throttle ahead to create, innovate and succeed, from educators to music pioneers to the HP garage boys. No wonder then, surrounded by so many outwardly brilliant, "happy," "well-adjusted" people, that some teens feel inadequate, out of place, and unwanted.

If children are taught that life does not involve an unfettered ascendancy to greatness, beauty and social acceptance, but rather is a test of how one responds to challenges and disappointments, then a teacher or a parent or a friend can help divert potential suicides into potential people. Young people should know that they are not alone in their feelings and that it is quite normal to think about ending one's life (but not act on it). Medicine can play a part in treating mental illness, but it is not the only solution, and it certainly is the most costly to society.

Treating people well, and helping them arrive at a better solution than suicide is neither touchy-feely, nor does it solely make the non-suicidal person feel better. There are countless examples in the real world of people who felt desperate, had made a plan to kill themselves, and had someone hold out a hand, changing their mind. It really matters how you treat children, especially of a certain age.

Posted by Leigh, a resident of the Professorville neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 12:50 pm

The Price of Privilege by Madeline Levine, a therapist in Marin, has some clues. Children become their parents' status symbols. The "My Child was Student of the Month" and elite college placards are status symbols as in many wealthy communities. Not every kid is cut out for Harvard or Stanford. We need to see the specialness in every kid, not just the creme de creme. There is great talent in people who are not conformists. Look at Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. Neither was a great student. There are many ways to thrive without being an A student. The A students suffer too, for the record.

A good start: unconditional love, acceptance, listening, being there not just for our kids but friends of our kids. We need to be an open and loving community that has a place for all kinds of people: Poets, artists, writers, janitors, waiters. How do we treat the people who mow our yards and care for children? What lessons do the kids learn about how to treat people? Does that leave them cut off from the community.

Family dinner, getting to know our neighbors, taking time to make eye contact and say hello, treating everyone with respect no matter how menial their job, forgiving transgressions.

If you are a teenager, who can you talk to? Is there someone to go to for a listening ear. Be that person for someone. It is likely someone did it for you.

Posted by Worried, a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 1:16 pm

Resident,

I think you are asking the right questions, but not of the right people. Experts are specialists. Two of the three adults on the panel last night are experts in depression. They see kids who are already there. I think they gave very real and compassionate answers to the questions they are experts at answering. Your questions, and mine and maybe the whole community, are bigger, cultural, societal questions. Did you to attend the Challenge Success panel at Stanford on a Friday night a few weeks ago? Denise Clark Pope, Madeleine Levine, and Michael Thompson were there. Now, THEY are grappling with the questions you pose. And they are trying to come up with answers. They are psychologists, not psychiatrists, and have a much broader expertise.

Smart Guy is right in that a cluster comes from people contemplating suicide already, seeing a way to do it. Resident, your kids may not ever be in this category as they do not already have Depression. The cause of Depression is not yet known but as has been said it is a real medical illness. It is not just stress. It is not created by stress, yet if it is there, stress can push it over the side.

I do believe that many of the things the Pres of ACS talked about last night,in terms of changes to kids' lives today, the alienation, the narrow focus on the right kind of success, etc are contributing to the decrease in the mental health of all our kids, and us. No one has time amymore. We don't. Our kids don't. The experts don't. The schools don't. Everyone is overwhelmed with the need to do more, push harder, handle larger numbers of kids at once, work more hours etc etc. What I see the kids asking for is more time. Slow down. Be available and not on a schedule. Adults everywhere need to be more available for kids and we need to stop over-scheduling and overwhelming the kids--and ourselves. This is a tough one to do by yourself. We all need to do it together. Schools, reduce the homework! Parents, reduce the push for Ivy's! Kids, take that dance class if you really like it. Don't if you don't. Schools, have enough adults so that kids are not lost at sea. Parents (county, state) pay for the schools to be able to have enough adults! Workplaces: value your employees and their families and the time needed to raise the next generation! Obviously, the list goes on and on.

We have gotten ourselves into a tight ball, wrapped around the axle and it will not be easy to unwind. But we must start. Will you do it with me?

Posted by SmartyGuy, a resident of the Community Center neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 1:36 pm

OhlonePar, I agree 100%. I'm just being a pain.

Your focused articulate post is what I only wish I could write, and honestly an approach that could save lives.

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 1:44 pm

SG,

Yeah, I figured given your sig.

I think we're all pretty frustrated and express it in different ways. I mean none of us wants this to keep happening.

Posted by Jonathan, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 1:53 pm

Thank you, Resident. We also need to distinguish between "inputs" and "outputs". Many kids in prior generations also worked very hard so I'm less worried about the amount of homework (input). It's the pressure on the output that concerns me. We won't accept anything unless it's an A even when that's not reasonable. That's where the pressure comes from. From the expectations we place on our kids. We worry about a competitive world etc, so subliminally we get them to worry too...

Posted by Teacher, a resident of Menlo Park, on Oct 22, 2009 at 1:57 pm

Re the very first post: disappointment is a fact of life that kids MUST have the tools to deal with. TOO MANY PALO ALTO PARENTS DO NOT GIVE THEIR KIDS THESE TOOLS. Crying over B's, having NO interpersonal skills, and SAT scores being the measure of their intelligence. I SEE IT EVERY DAY, FIVE DAYS A WEEK, 180 DAYS A SCHOOL YEAR.

Posted by know a perosom, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 2:07 pm

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by strafing, a resident of the Charleston Gardens neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 2:17 pm

the mental health people have an attack mode of dealing with people. drugs drugs drugs no matter what.is it any wonder these kids and others are doing this? they say you need drugs ,but these dugs have proven dangers that cannabis doesent. proof is,there are people whove collapsed from mental drugs,but can use cvannabis with no effects. stop lying to the public wioth your brainwashing ''help'' in the form of drugs.

Posted by former resident, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 2:26 pm

Heres a solution

Stop closing things down thats kids find popular.

Encourage music.

Enjoy your kids.

Posted by from the outside....., a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 2:50 pm

Regarding the notion of romanticizing suicide, I really think that adolescents haven't the foggiest idea that they will not be around to witness the sadness over their death. I remember many moons ago that when I was upset, I would think that if something (an accident) happened to me, the person I was upset with would be "really sorry". Unfortunately, I think that adolescents fantasize about participating from afar in the grief over their demise. They simply don't get that when it's over, it's over. Is that drummed into the heads of these kids - all kids?? They will not be around to enjoy it!

Posted by king student, a resident of the Meadow Park neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 2:51 pm

to all students:

Go cool!

Boy, boy, crazy boy

Get cool, boy

Got a rocket in your pocket

Keep coolie cool boy

Don't get hot

'Cause man you got

Some high times ahead

Take it slow

And Daddy-o

You can live it up and die in bed

Boy, boy, crazy boy

Stay loose, boy

Breeze it

Buzz it

Easy does it

Turn off the juice, boy

Go man, go

But not like a yo-yo school boy

Just play it cool, boy

Real cool

Boy, boy, crazy boy

Stay loose, boy

Breeze it

Buzz it

Easy does it

Turn off the juice, boy

Just play it cool, boy

Real cool

Posted by Gunn parent, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 3:14 pm

I wish people would stop using Bill Gates (or Mark Zuckerberg) as examples of successful college drop outs, implying they were not good students. They dropped out of Harvard, for goodness sakes, which means they were admitted in the first place. And they dropped out to take advantage of a unique business opportunity, not because they couldn't hack it.

Posted by A Palo Alto parent, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 4:04 pm

I'm not clear on this idea that we protect our kids from disappointment here and now. If anything, kids are experiencing more disappointment than is good for them, and from a very early age. I'm betting that many parents of high schoolers are now looking back on their children's school lives in PA, and saying, as some said all along, What was the point of all that pressure? What good did it do? It didn't make them competent or strong, it just made unnecessary obstacles to their happiness, health and success.

Posted by pamom, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 4:35 pm

Grampa Bill you make a good point. Also others have pointed out that the weight of the world is on our children's shoulders. From elementary on, the core literature is focused on to making them socially aware and caring about all kinds of problems. Look at what they are required to read each year(start with 6th grade) and count up the rapes, drugs, gangs, racism, and negativity that is there under the guise of "good" literature, year after year. Then in high school community service is a must -- the demands on our children are enormous.

Posted by alex t, a resident of the Meadow Park neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 5:39 pm

So the bottom line is what we need to do? We tried to go out together for the whole family my daughter reject it. She rather go with her friend because it is more fun. I prepare lunch for her she throw it back because no time to eat. I don't do that anymore she claim that I did not give her lunch. I wake her up so she can catch the bus after three times I go back to my work then she blame that I did not wake her up. She join her friend to study or go to the game or dancing even close to midnight I have to awake and wait for her to get home safety. Sometimes, I called her to make sure she is OK. She blame me for keep her at home all the time and don't allow her to have time with her friends. When she chat too long I remind her that hey you have the homework you need to do. In the next morning I have to write an excuse for her homework undone or late for class. I am not a perfect parent but I felt that I am the one thinking about suicide more than my queen.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 6:04 pm

Alex, you need some help. You also have my sympathies. Parenting is never easy and is often the case that you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. You need some house rules and some agreements. Sit down with your daughter and make a list of the things she expects of you and a list of the things you expect of her. Then try and make a corporate list you can both agree on. Compromises (probably on both sides) will be necessary. You can agree on some of her wants (staying out til a certain time provided you know where she is and that you will pick up at a certain time, or the answer is no next time). Studying at friend's house is ok occasionally but friend must spend equal time studying at your home and only occasionally.

Every time she wants you to do something for her, ask for something in return, emptying dishwasher, etc. Lunches have to be agreed on in advance and weekday, weekend curfews must be adhered to if privileges (yes privileges) are expected.

Communication is important without yelling sessions. A family outing may be too much to begin with, but how about mother/daughter trip for ice cream. Make the trip fun without being a heavy talk session will help. Go out with family once mother/daughter trips have happened a couple of times.

Good luck.

Posted by Citizen, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 7:15 pm

It is high time this newspaper took the lessons advocated by the World Health Organization, the CDC, and countless other organizations into consideration. Even the national press, as seen on the CBS Evening News tonight, takes the local press to task. It is this media outlet that has been the worst offender.

Posted by Gunn Student, a member of the Gunn High School community, on Oct 22, 2009 at 7:32 pm

these need to stop!

Posted by Concerned parent, a resident of the Palo Verde neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 7:33 pm

I attended the meeting, it was not what I expected. There were many question written and only very few answered. In one of the cards I wrote Can we have a psychologst on the train tracks, so when kids go there to end their lives, really see that "There is help" as the signs posted said. I thought school administrators or City mayor will answer that. However, there was no answer. To make things worst the city major was not even there. I pass by the tracks and there was no police around. They probably think we are of the woods, but I do not think so.

Here we are with big problem, and we can't sit down to brainstorm as a community to look for a solution.

Posted by Mike in Los Altos, a resident of Los Altos, on Oct 22, 2009 at 7:34 pm

I was in attendance last night and have to agree with Grampa Bill. The common theme to all these forums is to have a panel of "experts" tell us parents how to recognize problems in our children. Though I can understand why they don't open the mic to anyone as it could get out of hand, to answer only 4 questions that the 400+ audience had asked did not help. It seems to me that these forums are like the self help seminars people are lured into attending. They're free at first, then once in, they entice you to sign up for the next step and then they get you for the $$$. The point is, 99% of those people who take these seminars do not succeed in implementing them. (thus the reason why they sign up for the next success seminar!)

So, it's the same with our community. It's wonderful to have these forums, don't get me wrong. Anything helps and talking about it helps. However, people don't know how to apply the information that was given.

I really would like to see the next assemnbly require that the kids be in attendance. The problem many times is 1) the information is never disseminated to the child or 2) it wasn't understood correctly to begin with and thus is not translated to the child correctly.

Kids are smart at any age. They are also strong. It would not have hurt the children to hear anything that was said last night or in past forums. In fact, I am disappointed that the excuse was probably one of inconvenience. I never get that. Who would not want to sacrifice 2 hours time out of their day to extend the life of your child? Is it your sleep? Their sleep? People claim they are busy, but it's really just busy work. We all need to re-prioritize our lives and stop and smell the roses (not the Starbucks)

One last note, one of the panelists noted that if you notice your child is exhibiting signs of sadness, to take an extra minute to ask them how they are and what is wrong. Then they said to make it a point to get home 10 mintutes early to make sure they are okay.

Why not take the day off? Half day off? I believe most people (not all, I understand) have sick time, vacation time, personal time....THIS is the time to use it! What harm is it to take the child out of school for a half day/full day and spend that precious time with them? The most vivid memories of my school days was the time Dad took me out of school on a Wednesday to tour the wineries in Napa (we owned a restaurant) That time was precious and it only cost me one day of school, but the memory of that day lasted my whole life.

Life is more than the routine. Go out and do something out of the ordinary. Dictate your own lives, don't let anyone else do that for you. Say hello to a stranger and don't feel awkward doing it.

Thank you.

Posted by Paly student in the 80s, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 8:37 pm

I went to Paly in the early 1980s, and we had one or two suicides a year there, including a boy I knew who stepped in front of Caltrain. This is not a new phenomenon. Please don't be so quick to blame current social trends like technology. That's too easy and it's just not accurate.

I was suicidal as a teenager and was *very* tempted to sit on the train tracks then. You cannot look at this problem as something that has a one-size-fits-all, community-comes-together-in-the-face-of-a-challenge situation. Looking back on my suicidal impulses from an adult perspective, here is what I wish had happened then: (1) Annual school-sponsored depression screening in the form of one-on-one meetings with a counselor or other qualified individual, ideally someone from outside the school system (i.e., they don't know me or anyone I know). This wouldn't necessarily have to be called "depression screening," but if the right questions had been asked, someone probably would've noticed I was on the verge, and it would've been helpful to talk to someone who didn't know my friends, teachers, or parents.(2) An emphasis on acceptance of differences in peers and good treatment of others, starting at a young age in school and the community in general. Middle school and high school were (and must still be) riddled with cliques and animosity towards others who seem different. When a teen is feeling suicidal, this can exacerbate feelings of isolation. (3) I think that many parents, especially those posting here, mean well, but many are also incapable of dealing with a depressed and suicidal teenager. My parents were unapproachable on the topic of depression. I was unable to talk to my parents about my feelings and had to pretend everything was fine when all I wanted to do was die. Publicizing hotlines and other non-parental and non-school resources is essential.

What kept me from sitting in front of Caltrain? It was a close call, but in the end one close friend kept me away from the tracks. That close friend convinced me to keep living because there are small pleasures to be had, even when living seems impossible. If anti-depressants had been as common then as they are now, I think they would've helped too. (I have since been diagnosed with severe clinical depression.) But that was just me. Solutions will vary from person to person. Pay attention to your kids. I think the classic warning signs (available online and elsewhere) are fairly accurate in a lot of cases (though masking does occur). I know it's tempting to look for a global solution, but believe me, you're not going to find one.

Posted by parent, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 8:55 pm

King Student: Thanks for the memories! I wonder how many kids grew up listening to those lyrics. So applicable now. There were troubles back in those days are there are now. Sometimes a troubled kid can be "a gang of one."

Posted by parent, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 9:00 pm

If teenagers went back to acting like teenagers then they would have plenty of healthy, and yes, some normal risk-taking outlets to let steam off on a regular basis. The heavy homework load, the desire to be the best athlete, best musician, best whatever, and the extra hours spent in ridiculous SAT Prep courses, robs these kids of the precious time they need to be teenagers and find their way in the world.

Instead of Test Prep courses, why don't more Palo Alto teens have part-time jobs and even chores at home? Because many of their parents think that being an A student is the only job their kids should be doing. While many of these students may get into their precious top college choices, many of them will arrive at college burnt out and ready to crash. They won't have a clue about what they really want to do with their lives as all they know is how to be a student and "do school." A teenager who had time to explore and make plenty of mistakes in their high school years and experienced the disappointment of getting grades that are not "A"s, will be a more mature, capable, and directed college student. I think college admission officers need to rethink what kind of students they really should be admitting. Students who are programmed to do everything it takes to "get into a good college" or students who come with some life experiences and have gotten some of their kinks out?

Posted by Parent # 10, a resident of Mountain View, on Oct 22, 2009 at 9:28 pm

From the news:

"Parents pleaded for details about the lives of the four students who died .."

I didn't go to the meeting. What was the response for this request?

I too would agree that we need to know more about the situation. Otherwise, we are all trying to solve this complicated issue blindly. We don't need any specific detail, nor any name. If we do not have any slight idea about the cause, how can we even start solving the problem? On the other hand, it's possible that we are all working on a wrong direction.

It's too obvious that we have reached a situation where all solutions failed. This special situation deserves some extraordinary measures. Just not too long ago, an incidence of H1N1 (or even a possible H1N1 case) would close a school. Our government has spent millions to prevent an H1N1 death. In my opinion, the current situation is way more severe than H1N1. The local government needs to gather all wisdoms, at ANY cost, to come up with findings and recommendations. If Palo Alto does not have enough budget, ask Sacramento.

Posted by Paly mom, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 9:32 pm

Paly student in the 80s-thank you so much for your comments. I am SO GLAD that you had a friend who kept you away from the tracks. I think an annual depression screening (called something else) by outside experts is an excellent idea.

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 9:37 pm

Gunn Parent,

Actually, the word on Bill Gates is that he got kicked out of Harvard--for cheating.

But more to the point, you don't have to be Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg to have a worthwhile and meaningful life. You don't have to live in Palo Alto. You don't have to be the best at anything.

And it's a good thing--because none of us are Gates or Zuckerberg. It's ridiculous how high we set the definition of success around here.

Citizen,

The CBS video makes reference to a video of a train as being an issue--no video here, so no, there's nothing that indicates that this site was the worst.

More to the point, the CDC recommendations are based on older research. Some newer research indicates that the right kind of reporting may have a preventative aspect.

Haven't seen *any* research which deals with the fact that the information isn't, in fact, disseminated solely by traditional media.

Posted by Parent # 10, a resident of Mountain View, on Oct 22, 2009 at 9:54 pm

To Paly student in the 80s,

Well said.

I admire your courage to bring up your own experiences as well as some recommendations. You are truly wonderful!

Posted by Paly '88, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Oct 22, 2009 at 11:39 pm

Paly student-

We likely knew each other back in the day. I spent more than my share of time sitting by the tracks,both helping friends or getting help from friends. I am raising kids,both in middle school now. How can I not be terrified for them? Maybe my own experiences sensitized me o the very open,loving relationship we have. Not to say it iseasy growing up now- or parenting.I just know my priorities and perspective have been forever rooted in the lessons I learned when the train lay permanent marks upon my heart as it's tracks were forever embossed with the death of a special friend.

Posted by The Factor, a resident of the Charleston Meadows neighborhood, on Oct 23, 2009 at 4:36 am

first of all this society has forgotten about family. We are so quick to take our kids to babysit on a night off and we work long hours that we forget that it affects our children. both parents now work as a living to have nice things, we forget to communicate to our children and ask them how there day was. All starts at home. we will never see the 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's, if you noticed we have had changes through those, each decade has been a different issue.

Posted by William R. Taylor, M.D., a resident of another community, on Oct 23, 2009 at 8:54 am

Condolences to the community at this difficult time. The earlier post on suicidal impulses by Paly student in the 80s was moving and courageous. A variety of screening quizzes are available for depression: see for example the Beck Depression Inventory, in David Burns' book, Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy.

Parents, school staff or students interested in resilience might look at the chapter on resilience at

Web Link

or one on vicious cycles in families, such as nagging/procrastinating at Web Link.

Posted by Former Paly Mom, a resident of Mountain View, on Oct 23, 2009 at 9:39 am

I was deeply moved by both of the 80's Paly students' comments. I think they both have a lot of wisdom and insight into surviving such a tragedy. Perhaps they are another resource for understanding and guidance.

Posted by Gunn Parent, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Oct 23, 2009 at 9:50 am

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.] Some students have expressed unrealistic academic expectations and social isolation being an issue. I agree with all of that, but having so many classmates consecutively take their lives is also a huge contributor to the "toxic atmosphere" at Gunn. There are many Gunn students who sincerely want to reach out to their classmates and put a stop to this sad trend. There are teachers who really do care. Parents, teachers, and students: keep your eyes and hearts open for those who are suffering, don't be afraid to ask for help when you are overwhelmed, and give comfort to the families and friends of those who have lost one of these dear young people.

Posted by JustMom, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Oct 23, 2009 at 9:58 am

We talk, talk, talk! And it's comforting because you see that you are not the only one feeling this deep sorrow for the lost lives and worry about your own kids. But as a community, we are strong! we actually CAN make a difference, no matter how it sounds.

From the several posts, I found 2 suggestions and a lot of volunteers to have some action, not just exchange opinions:

1) Annual school-sponsored depression screening in the form of one-on-one meetings with a counselor or other qualified individual, ideally someone from outside the school system (i.e., they don't know me or anyone I know). This wouldn't necessarily have to be called "depression screening," but if the right questions had been asked, someone probably would've noticed I was on the verge, and it would've been helpful to talk to someone who didn't know my friends, teachers, or parents....

2) Have a conversation in the classroom. Keep it professional. Start early, start from elementary school. Ask kids opinions, suggestions, Listen what bother them? How their behavior with friends, anybody who is different, bulling, acceptance may effect them/other kids. Give real life examples. Explain where to look for help, if needed. Not all kids have a luxury of that at home. (After all we explain the sexual education to ALL kids early, no matter if they are ready for it or not). That is equally, if not more important. Kids are smart at any age. They are also strong. It's not more stress than 20-30 years ago. That's the luck of community and parental involvement (right, majority of us still work full time).

We need to do something to stop all that madness. They are great kids!

Posted by mom, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 23, 2009 at 10:03 am

Dr. Taylor,

Thank you for posting the links, I'll pick up the book on reducing stress in my family and have already gotten a few tips to cut down on nagging.

Posted by Just curious, a resident of Los Altos, on Oct 23, 2009 at 3:37 pm

There are many good suggestions and requests for action in this forum and some other related forums. I am just curious how the feedback from you all can reach school and/or city officials. I am hoping at some point a staff member of Gunn will come out and say, yes, we have heard you in this forum and we will take your suggestions/feedback very seriously.

There's no doubt that Gunn is trying hard to solve this issue. There's no better way than direct reaching out and close interaction with the community. You could start from here.

Posted by Gunn parent, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Oct 23, 2009 at 5:02 pm

Thank you OhlonePar. You made my point.

Posted by Lex, a member of the Gunn High School community, on Oct 23, 2009 at 6:28 pm

When I first saw

You look into me

The gleam in your eyes made my heart skip a beat

My body felt nervous

And my heart began to pound as this test of love brought me to my knees

Feeling the pulse of the space from you to me

The love that I felt made me shake made me weak

Im under your spell and theres nothing i can do as the day turns into night i am for you

The spell you got me under

your eyes they make me wonder

is this a fantasy or is this love for real

cuz all the things you do to me

they lock me up and set me free

fever up this crazy love dances with a passion in my heart

NO i dont really love you

Posted by Observer, a resident of the South of Midtown neighborhood, on Oct 24, 2009 at 1:03 pm

Please join in the effort to stop the trains. If Caltrain would have all trains stop before this intersection, then proceed slowly until they clear it, the cluster would stop growing. If you took the extra perhaps five minutes it might take on these routes, and compare that with the delays caused by the incidents, along with the immeasurable cost of these lives, it would be an obvious win for all. I would imagine that for the operators of the trains through Palo Alto, they would prefer stopping the train, thus gaining some control, over speeding through that intersection while waiting for something bad to happen. The rest of us could go through our days with a bit more ease, perhaps our thinking might become more clear around long term solutions to teen depression, which is the culprit here, what ever the complex cause.

Posted by kiplingst, a member of the Palo Alto High School community, on Oct 25, 2009 at 3:29 pm

To everyone,

I read the letter from the Sup and asked my daughter if anyone

talked to her at school (Paly) and she said no. She didn't know the

details of the suicide either. I think the letter and the way this

and the past ones were handled are bad and could possibly worsen the

situation.

Well, the psychology-degree holders and gurus might disagree with me,

but let me tell you as a person who lost one to suicide, what I think

needs to happen:

1) Parents and teachers MUST realize that suicidal tendencies ARE

NORMAL in teenagers. I had them, but didn't act on it, although

many a times after a tough test or when I knew the grades were not

going to be good, I felt like ending. My parents were shocked to

know that I had felt that way when I told them after we lost one.

But I believe it is reality for teenagers to have those tendencies

because they are NOT really responsible for anything, i.e. no one

is dependent on them but everyone wants some "glory" out of them.

2) Once you realize that it is NORMAL to have those tendencies,

then you will pay MORE attention to your kids and openly tell

them NOT to do act on it. As parents, we do challenge our kids to

perform, but also let them know that if they lose a grade it's not

the end of the world. When you are AWARE of this, you will call

your kid after tests, calm them down, take them to movies, etc.

We all want our kids to go to Stanford, etc. but when we really

think about it, it is not really worth it these days IMHO.

(Barring a few exceptions, you usually find yourself working for

a "dumb" one anyway:-(

3) Suicide is not just caused by depression, etc. etc. (fill in

the psycho babble, no offense to anyone). I don't even know what

depression means. But I can tell you from my experience, the

tendencies are not always there. Everything is good, when there is

no pressure. Once the pressure of succeeding "for others (parents,

society, etc.)" comes in, that's when it comes up and I felt I

needed an outlet, and at least back then, it was not my parents

or teachers who were going to understand me. I kept it bottled up

but postponed it, and postponed it, and luckily I was wrong, and

things after all turned out to be ok. My point is, as a parent

you are not necessarily going to find your kid depressed, lonely,

"being to oneself", etc. etc. It will all look normal, like it did

to my parents, but that doesn't mean it is. And I don't assume it

is for my kids too.

4) I am able to talk openly about my adolescence now but if I had

done that back then, I would have risked being admitted to a mental

hospital. That stigma or taboo is still there today, and I didn't

see anything in the superintendent's letter addressing that.

I'm not advocating anything here. Whenever I hear this type of

incident, it tears me apart. I just wanted to share my thoughts

so maybe it might benefit someone. I'm not a doctor, just a common

person with a bit of common sense, and prone to errors like human.

So my message to parents is to BE AWARE that tendencies exist and

take necessary precautions, then everything will turn out to be fine.

Good luck!

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Oct 25, 2009 at 11:46 pm

kiplingst,

NO, suicidal tendencies are NOT normal in teenagers. For crying out loud. I had some really rough times as a teen--deaths in the family, bad grades, the works--but I never had suicidal tendencies.

You may have had them as a teen--but they were a sign of depression.

You may not know what depression means, but the fact that you had such a strong reaction to test scores as a teen and also ascribe a feeling of helplessness to being a teen tells me that you probably experienced it.

It does sound like you masked your depression--and that happens--smart people, unfortunately, can be far too good at it.

I think it's worth pointing out that having self-destructive feelings doesn't automatically land you in a mental hospital. There are various degrees of seriousness--it's pretty much an imminent threat to one's self or others that will put you suicide watch.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 26, 2009 at 9:49 am

Ohlone Par

Having read your last post here I am reminded of a post of mine a few days ago on one of these threads where I shared, for the first time in my life, my thoughts about suicide when I was a teenager. I had no serious plans, but every time I had a hard time with my parents (they shouted at me, each other and various other people for very little reason) I did think about suicide. I thought about a method but there was none easily available to me that would work without causing me physical pain if it went wrong. An unmanned grade crossing, where others had previously done the same thing, might have been enough to do the trick. I had no real desire to die, just to stop the shouting at home.

My point of mentioning this again is that I do not consider myself depressed. I was a teenager with problems at home. These problems affected my school work. I was happy a lot of the time, but that was with my friends, at my friends' homes, with their families, etc.

My parents had no idea how I felt, they were too wrapped up in their own problems. On the outside we were a good, middle class family, pretty average by all accounts, but inside our home the family lived in fear of being shouted at. As soon as I lived away from home, my personality changed dramatically.

So, if I could live like this, with feelings of suicide just to stop the shouting matches, can't there be many other teens like this nowadays. I am sure I am not unique in the fact that home to many teenagers is not the tranquil solace we like to think. It may not be anything to do with parents pushing a child in school, or school pressures, but really dysfunctional parents not being positive in the lives of their kids.

What I needed was not to see any type of expert. What I needed was a stable home life. I did not get what I needed, but as soon as I was out of that environment I was a changed person. I will also add that it took a great deal of time, but my relationship with my parents did improve with the years. It was not me who had to change to fix this, but them.

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Oct 26, 2009 at 5:33 pm

Resident,

What you describe is pretty classic somewhat moderate depression. That said, depression should not be confused with being crazy. It can be a rational response to a bad situation where the person feels powerless. It's not simply something that needs to be Prozaced away, depression's a set of symptoms (which you had) and can be and often is the result of a situation.

Some people are more prone to it than others and, yes, leaving a depressing situation and becoming more empowered (feeling helpless is a classic symptom of depression) will often alleviate it.

No one's born depressed, it's something that many of us acquire. Some are more vulnerable to it than others--but environment is a major factor for many people. It's not like schizophrenia.

Obviously, you got away and did fine without an expert. What a therapist might have done, though, is get you to see as a teenager that you didn't need to turn your anger inward with self-destructive thoughts, that there were ways to form connections outside your family and that there were ways to think of how you would get away from a bad family dynamic and not bring the damage with you. At the very least, it would have been a place where your feelings mattered.

Therapists don't have magical powers. I think I got through a tough adolescence because I ran across just enough adults who wanted to listen to me and could give me some perspective. Sometimes here (when I'm not ranting about MI, overcrowding and my other pet topics), I'm just trying to pay it forward a bit and be the adult paying attention.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 26, 2009 at 10:37 pm

Thanks Ohlone Par for your perspective.

I suppose the reason I mention this now is because I feel I can identify with many of the teens who feel that the adults in their lives are not listening. Sometimes it isn't just that they aren't listening but won't hear let alone listen. Getting a parent who is so intent on their own agenda, whether it is problems in their own lives or trying to live out their own goals through their kids, is definitely a very big problem for a teen who will ultimately give up trying to make their voice heard.

So if a teen can get help from somewhere, it doesn't have to be a professional, just a willing adult - a friend's parent, a church leader, a coach, a neighbor - it doesn't really matter as long as the teen feels that they have someone who does care, will listen and tries to understand. It isn't advice or help they are looking for, just a sympathetic shoulder to cry on who will be discreet. I hope that any teen who knows me feels that I could be this person if they need me.

Yes, I am concerned for my own kids and their friends in this environment, but I am also reliving my own painful teen years, and they come back every time this happens, whether it is this year at Gunn or a few years ago at Paly.

Posted by Sharon, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Oct 26, 2009 at 10:52 pm

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Oct 26, 2009 at 11:27 pm

Hi Resident,

Looking our posts over, I feel like I should qualify a bit--there are levels of depression. When I talk about adults being there to listen, I don't mean this in the case of severe depression--that state really does need some sort of therapeutic intervention. What a good support network can do is keep a moderately depressed person from spiraling into the black hellhole of a bad depression.

It's a bit why I harp on the situation at Gunn--there's no indication that Gunn was the primary cause of the onset of depression in any of the suicides, but there are many indicators that it's not a good environment for anyone prone to depression. And many teenagers are prone to depression--so much so that,yes, we do tend to both normalize its symptoms (just being a teenager) and stigmatize (depression=mental illness=crazy=weak)it.

I feel like Skelley and the Gunn administration mean well, but with all this brouhaha about "Talk to Me" tee shirts and knowing the symptoms, they're sort of off track--depression doesn't exist in a vaccuum. They need to focus on creating a healthier environment for all children instead of trying to tag the potentially weak members of the herd.

Posted by Sharon, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Oct 27, 2009 at 6:01 am

Fortunately the PAMF and Stanford Dept of Psychiatry have offered psychiatric screening and treatment for PA adolescents at risk for the severe depressive illness.

The issue of serious depressive illness among young college students has been the topic of a series of articles in the WSJ over the last few months.

Cornell University has adopted an evidence based program to provide screening and treatment of those students at risk by qualified psychiatrists.

The Cornell program has been very effective at dramatically reducing student suicides there and is being rapidly adopted and implemented at colleges across the country.

It is time to implement such evidence based psychiatric screening and treatment programs a high schools in Palo Alto.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Oct 27, 2009 at 3:21 pm

To any students reading this

I shared before my teen years, my thoughts of suicide and the fact that I had problems at home which meant any problems at school could not be dealt with by talking at home. So I am saying that I understand exactly how hard it is for any teen who is having any type of problems and can't talk about it at home. What kept me from being swamped was the fact that I was able to find someone who would listen to me. I didn't want to be talked to and told what to do, I wanted someone to listen without condemning and basically have a compassionate adult's shoulder to cry on. It did help me.

So I urge any of the teens who have posted on these forums to find someone they can talk to if you can't talk to your parents. It may be a relative, a neighbor (possibly an empty nester or a parent of very young children), it may be a sports coach, a friend's parent, a teacher you had last year, a youth leader of some kind. If you really can't find anyone in your life to be this close adult friend, then consider going to one of the churches that has an active youth program. You might find some fun, you might find some new friends, you might find an adult you can talk to, and you may even find some people you already know.

There was a thread here a while ago that listed many possible church activities Web Link. If you don't want to go on your own, find a friend to go along with. You will probably find that you can go without needing to sign up for anything, just start by attending some of the regular meetings and seeing if you like them. But don't be put off because they are church.

Above everything else, find someone to talk to. Friends are great, but an adult friend may help you in a different way. You never know, you may even come across me and I would love to help you.