Send this story Print this story

Adjust text size

Uploaded: Friday, September 11, 2009, 9:32 AM

A growing problem
Marijuana operations set up by Mexican cartels flourish in Santa Clara County mountains

by Gennady Sheyner
Palo Alto Weekly Staff

Posted by al, a resident of another community, on Sep 11, 2009 at 12:02 pm

Anyone growing tobacco at home? No, but if you make it illegal someone will just like this.

If you make weed legal, you will put all these bad people out of work.

Simple huh. Yet why is this so hard to understand??????????????????

Posted by John, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Sep 11, 2009 at 12:37 pm

"If you make weed legal, you will put all these bad people out of work."

I have never understood that argument. I you legalize methamphetamines, you will put the illegal dealers out of business, too. Same with heroin production and prostitution. Basically, anything that is now illegal, and requires law enforcement, can be made legal, then we could save all sorts of money, by firing the law enforcement officials. Should we get rid of all building inspections laws, because they cost money to enforce, and produce an underground industry of non-permit remodelers?

Isn't it better to just argue the merits and demerits of pot use? If the merits outweight the demerits, then legalize it; if the demerits outweigh the merits, then enforce the law, and accept the costs of doing so.

Posted by my wife, a resident of the Adobe-Meadows neighborhood, on Sep 11, 2009 at 1:19 pm

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by al, a resident of another community, on Sep 11, 2009 at 1:21 pm

I was just talking about pot and tobacco.

No need to get rid of all building inspections laws, because they cost money to enforce.

No need to fire cops, just have them look for bigger fish.

the merits do outweight the demerits yet human nature resists change like nothing else so we abide by stupid laws just cause someone 60+ years ago thought it would protect their interests

Posted by JustMe, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Sep 11, 2009 at 1:24 pm

As my grandfather once pointed out: "We already have one legal drug in our society, and look how much damage it does. Do we really need another?" I think not.

I have no sympathy for anyone involved in the making, transport, or selling of drugs. They are seeking to make money preying on kids who don't know better. Remember Joe Camel, designed to attract new younger smokers, because older people didn't seem to pick up the habit like kids do? Yeah, like I want to see Peter Pothead billboards, right?

Anyone who seeks to make a living by impairing the lives of kids needs to be stopped, and no quarter can be given in that battle.

To the police: GO FOR IT!!! Do what you need to do, but stop the distribution of illegal drugs please. (This does NOT mean making illegal drugs legal.)

Posted by Sean, a resident of Menlo Park, on Sep 11, 2009 at 2:14 pm

Flipping eh, this article irritated the crap out of me. MAKE MARIJUANA LEGAL!!!!!!!!!! Look we now have a Mexican Drug Cartel in our backyard and then taking all the profits back into Mexico. The cops are complaining this is a big problem. Go figure, it's going to be grown and sold in the United States forever, marijuana is not going away, make it legal and tax it and start generating state revenue.

Posted by Sean, a resident of Menlo Park, on Sep 11, 2009 at 2:21 pm

You will never stop marijuana from getting in the hands of the kids. I graduated in '95 from high school and knew a bunch of "kids" buying and selling pot. I am certain the same thing is happening now, because it is illegal. Trying to buy alcohol while under age is harder than buying pot.

Posted by Name, a resident of the Charleston Gardens neighborhood, on Sep 11, 2009 at 3:43 pm

Wow. What an amazing waste of money. The DEA is setup primarily to train in urban warfare against the citizens of the United States. At some point in the future those same DEA and narco Kops will be used to enslave the nation. Web Link

Posted by John, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Sep 11, 2009 at 4:11 pm

I don't have a strong opinion about pot, although I pobably come down on the restrictive side. I blew a fair amount of pot, when I was in my late teens, early 20s. I gave it up, because it was a demotivator for me. Basically, I got scared that I was going nowhere, and pot allowed me to be smooth about that fact. I see too many kids getting smooth on pot, and having no purpose in their lives.

Later in my life, I developed a real liking for good scotch. After I fianlly gave up that habit, I think I am in a position to judge one vs the other. Scotch made me the life of the party, while pot zoned me out in the corner. That's probably just me. I would not really recommend either one, to a good friend. I have too many good friends who are addicted to either or both. Adults have their bad habits, as did I, but I think it is at least somewhat damaging to have young people hooked on pot, because it gets them stuck in a type of personal depression, and induces them to be deluded into thinking that everything is OK, when it isn't. Booze is a well known killer, and prohibition strongly suppressed the deaths due to alcohol, although FDR liked his dry martinis, and was more than happy to listen to arguments similar to what are being made on this thread.

Bottom line for me: Have a serious discussion about pot, then decide if it is benign, as its proponents claim. I don't think so, but I could be persuaded by real facts.

Posted by A Noun Ea Mus, a resident of the Professorville neighborhood, on Sep 11, 2009 at 4:19 pm

Marijuana is vastly eclipsed by alcohol and tobacco as regards harmful effects.

Despite all the spin marijuana use is virtually harmless. Not so for meth, cocaine, etc., and of course the two legal drugs sold freely.

It makes sense to SEVERELY decriminalize it---such that casual use and casual growing would be not a crime. A person could grow a few plants, buy a few joints from a neighbor, smoke at home or at a party.

Just no wholeseale yards of plants growing, no walking down University Ave. past the Cheesecake Factory smoking a joint rolled with the NY Times.

That would drive out the criminals, free up our police and jails, etc.

Posted by John, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Sep 11, 2009 at 4:44 pm

"Marijuana is vastly eclipsed by alcohol and tobacco as regards harmful effects."

That has not been my personal experience, but perhaps you have some real facts to persuade me. Alcohol causes tens of thousands of traffic deaths each year. It also causes severe health effects, like liver damage. Pot is different, I think. Pot has strong psychological effects on regular users, even though they deny it. Of course, pot users also think they can drive just fine, until they kill someone. Regular pot users are often addicted to both pot and alcohol. They seem to be convinced that their personal rebellion against pot laws is of a higher moral order, although they are so deluded by their habit that they cannot step back and look at themselves in the mirror. Then there is all that mutagenic smoke that goes into their lungs, just like tobacco.

I am looking for some serious discussions about the relative merits/demerits of pot, in order to determine if it should be legalized.

Posted by Rob, a resident of Woodside, on Sep 11, 2009 at 6:11 pm

Why are these illegals in my country with guns, selling meth to our kids? Time for some order. Where is the system broken? FIX IT NOW!

Posted by A Noun Ea Mus, a resident of the Professorville neighborhood, on Sep 11, 2009 at 7:46 pm

John,

One can find a lot of partisan stuff as regards the harm or downside of pot.

Yes it's mutagenic. But no one smokes a pack a day of pot, unless they are in a Cheech and Chong movie. And there is the brownie option.

Pot has not be proven to be physically addictive. Psychological addiction is a bit hard to prove I think. On that basis we might ban romantic relationships also. Or chocolate and ice cream.

Whether or not pot is legal or not I would advocate for DUI level punishment for driving under the influence.

I guess to each their own as to how they would characterize pot. If given a group and then divided into current/past users vs. NEVER, usually I find the former to be more productive, innovative, creative, etc.

There is an addictive personality that can be using all these. Nicotine is very effective at treating depression--in fact scientists are looking at how to take advantage of it...

Web Link

I think that if we just SEVERELY decriminalized personal use and cultivation that would be the best option. We don't want to allow it to be commercialized (advertising and profit motive come in and then usage would blossom for sure), tax'd (government addiction), etc. The cartels in the hills would have to turn to something else, the jails could empty out a lot, the police and DEA could stop wasting time on nonsense, etc. And pot users would not longer have a basis to feel superior as you describe.

If a big semi is stopped full of pot, sure arrest them. If someone is driving and pulled over, is positive for pot, DUI level sanctions, someone found with more than X number of plants growing then fine to arrest (the price would come way down).

The fly in this ointment is that over time people would forget how expensive it used to be, wouldn't want to have to garden it.

Posted by sharon, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Sep 11, 2009 at 8:09 pm

recent research proves that use of high potency pot which is now the norm results in high incidence of schizophrenia among young adults>

smoking pot is in fact more carcinogenic than other smoking as users inhale more deeply and hold it for much longer

non smoking formulations may help with the lung cancer and copd effects

but do not deal with the very high incidence of schizophrenia in young users

Posted by John, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Sep 11, 2009 at 8:19 pm

"The fly in this ointment is that over time people would forget how expensive it used to be, wouldn't want to have to garden it."

That's an interesting statement. If I understand you correctly, that means that pot will be readily avaiable to all those who want it. Currently, pot is not readily available...one has to search for it...illegally. I raised four kids, and pot was an issue, but I was able, hyprocritically, to argue against it. I had learned my lesson about pot, and I did not want my kids to follow my path. One did, but three did not. The prohibitionslwas hlped my raise my kids.

Just curious, do you have kids? If so, how did you deal with the issue?

Posted by A Noun Ea Mus, a resident of the Professorville neighborhood, on Sep 11, 2009 at 10:37 pm

My comment was based on the projected concept that at first current users paying a lot would be motivated to grow their own, as it would be functionally legal/decriminalized to grow a small quantity. Or they could get/buy some from a neighbor. But, working against this concept would be that, over time, the price drop from the local and limited supplier would reduce the motivation for home gardening.

And yes, it would be fairly easily available to all who want it. But not commercially in the established way--no Joe the Camels, no billboards touting drinks, Mojito commercials on TV, etc. A person would have to either grow their own or buy from a friend who grows (and would only be allowed so much to grow lest the crime threshold surpassed).

I am in the midst of the teenage era with my kids. I have been lucky so far and don't want to tout my way as credited with it. I/we may have just been lucky so far.

Basically I was pretty open about my pot use in the past---including the really stupid and paranoid stuff I did. I get teased even to this day. Some of the stories are quite funny.

I said that the main reason not to smoke any pot is because of the heavy criminal sanctions. But that if they had to choose between smoking tobacco, using pot, or developing an alcohol dependence...that pot would medically be more safe. I also described how, if heroin were legal and you could legally get safe needles also...that daily injecting vs. daily alcohol intake (be a heroin addict vs being an alcoholic) that in 30 years the alcohol would do more damage. But that in the real world it's a package deal and this doesn't apply. I told them of the mild dangers associated with pot use, that for some people it can derail their lives more. But strong cautions about alcohol addiction, tobacco addiction, and of course cocaine and heroin are super bad--both as drugs and the necessary milieu one must enter.

Basically took a harm reduction approach rather than a Just Say No, or no tolerance approach. I think we set ourselves up for failure when we get too boogeymanish about marijuana usage.

So far one does occasionally at parties or at friends. Is very good about not driving. Others don't use at all, one occasionally may have a beer at a party. I don't view the success or failure just on the use/non-use of marijuana per se...but the total coping through life as regards all the potentials.

If there were packages of attractively packaged pot at the check out counter at the supermarket I would probably succumb. That crowded little Safeway on Middlefield now congested as the checkout aisles have rows of Pot cartons.

Instead it's Tanquery and Vermouth martini's!

as to Sharon's comments...is there any patient who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia caused by smoking marijuana? Marijuana can also increase the risk of heart attack---it mimics adrenalin and so can be akin to someone taking too many "hits" off Primatene mist. (another Science News article).

If I post the link to below, ya get blocked because I subscribe and article is only available to subscribers, but here's the print... from Science News May 22, 2004. It is amazing to me how everyone tends to believe what they want to believe, no matter how much education of scientific methodology (myself included no doubt). It seems though that the harm/sanction scales are way over-tipped as regards marijuana. Yet I would hardly characterize chronic and long term use as benign. It is my hope that we can actually have a discussion on this topic, and not just lob forth and back ideology grenades.

"Pot on the Spot: Marijuana's risks become blurrier"

The federal government's war on drugs gets plenty of ammunition from scientific studies that have correlated the use of such substances to various psychological problems. Conspicuously absent, however, are data showing that marijuana, one of the most widely used illicit drugs, causes mental or behavioral problems in teenagers and young adults, a new report concludes.

The causal chain of events could just as easily run in the opposite direction, suggest psychologist John Macleod of the University of Birmingham in England and his colleagues in the May 15 Lancet. Available evidence is consistent with the possibility that various psychological and social difficulties foster marijuana use, which may then contribute to a worsening of those problems, Macleod's group contends.

After reviewing 48 relevant multiyear studies published between 1975 and 2003, the team focused on 16 investigations that had regularly assessed large samples of children or teenagers for at least 10 years.

"We've found no strong evidence that use of [marijuana] in itself has important consequences for psychological or social health, but we cannot exclude the possibility that such a relation exists," Macleod says.

He and his colleagues are particularly skeptical of recent reports from Sweden and New Zealand that around 1 in 10 teenagers who had smoked marijuana experienced schizophrenia symptoms by young adulthood. It's doubtful that marijuana plays a direct role in schizophrenia, Macleod's group argues, because the mental disorder's worldwide incidence has remained stable while the proportion of teens reporting marijuana use has fluctuated.

Psychiatrist Herbert D. Kleber of Columbia University says that this argument underplays the increased risk of schizophrenia reported in the Swedish and New Zealand studies. There's now so much evidence of an association between teens' marijuana use and later psychosocial problems that it's hard to dismiss the likelihood of a causal effect, Kleber argues. "Macleod's team sees the smoke but won't acknowledge that there's a fire," he says.

The controversy continues to smolder. The new review of research results "confirms what's been known for decades about marijuana's lack of extreme harmfulness," remarks medical sociologist Marsha Rosenbaum, director of the Drug Policy Alliance's San Francisco office. Her organization works to decriminalize marijuana but doesn't condone its use by teenagers.

On the other hand, David Murray, special assistant to the director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy in Washington, D.C., argues that reports of teens often developing psychological or behavioral difficulties after beginning to smoke marijuana are reason enough to regard early use of the drug as a public health concern, especially given the increased potency of marijuana sold in the United States in recent years."

Posted by Mike, a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood, on Sep 12, 2009 at 2:25 am

Legalize it.

Posted by Sharon, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Sep 12, 2009 at 5:18 am

Cannabis use linked to 40% rise in risk of schizophrenia

Lancet study Web Link

Posted by A Noun Ea Mus, a resident of the Professorville neighborhood, on Sep 12, 2009 at 8:03 am

OK we can have dueling Web Links...

Web Link

Web Link

Or just go to www.pubmed.com and type in <Marijuana Schizophrenia>

Marijuana is a risk factor for developing schizophrenia in susceptible people, those pre-disposed to develop it. However other studies have shown no increase in schizophrenia in the population.

If legalized there could be a warning label put on the package.

Posted by Bru, a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on Sep 12, 2009 at 12:13 pm

So funny ....

... it's pretty clear that there are umpteen or more issues that the American people cannot decide or agree on.

These disagreements and their intractibiliy are the reasons our society just ratchets up the tension year after year. The list of subjects polite people do not want to discuss grows everyday now with the weather not even safe to talk about because of global warming. Pot, good or bad, legal, illegal or decriminalize. What would be the result ... hey, let's not do anything about finding out, let's just argue year after year decade after decade.

America is dead politically because of just this reason. The only force we have for change is the corporations, and they have engineered it this way.

If we want to start to reclaim our country and bring ourselves back to life, and be able to talk to each other again, we must do some tests. We sort of tried in California, with medicinal marijuana, but no media outlet or corporation wants to reveal the results, good or bad, what is going on - because that might lead to the people thinking they can actually exercise power, and wanting to do it more to clear out the garbage that we have been arguing about for decades.

How about some facts. How about talking about, and designing some experiments and then leveraging states rights in different places to find out what is good, what is bad, what works, what doesn't work, and then disseminating that information, and moving the heck on. Are we all tired of being stuck in the past arguing all the time? I know I am.

Posted by A Noun Ea Mus, a resident of the Professorville neighborhood, on Sep 12, 2009 at 3:22 pm

I sympathize with your sentiments.

But even the Science News article had to be in referee mode with the dueling studies and articles.

Also the idea of "leveraging states rights", if done ala the experiments suggested, would then have people contesting the results, the spin, plus that Maine isn't Texas isn't Wyoming isn't New York. But some state government leaders are bringing up secession now.

Part of the problem is that we get our "news" and framing of such now based on often markedly partisan lines. I read the Mercury News and PA Weekly, etc. But often my spin comes from The Nation, Huffington Post, ProPublica, Rachel Maddow show, etc. And others get a far different spin from the predictable Fox News types.

40 Years ago everyone watched Huntley & Brinkley, Walter Cronkite, etc. Those days are gone.

I sometimes wonder if there will be some flash point. You know there was a time period a while back....Gov. Jeb Bush had sent armed state troopers to remove Terry Schiavo from where she was. Meanwhile local armed police were under orders to keep her there. Jeb Bush recalled the state troopers before they arrived. Images of Fort Sumter come to mind.

Posted by dogs, a resident of the Fairmeadow neighborhood, on Sep 12, 2009 at 3:25 pm

pot can make you more aware of what dogs and animals are ''thinking''. you can see minute subltleties that you normally wouldnt notice. try some pot,dog lovers,and see what pooch is thinking, better than television or crime reports

Posted by John, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Sep 12, 2009 at 4:27 pm

"pot can make you more aware of what dogs and animals are ''thinking'' "

That is what I am talking about. I used to believe such nonsense. I used to think that pot increased the pleasure of tastes, like food and sex, and that it made me more aware. It took me a long time, but I finally figured out that pot just slowed me down (stupor), and I was "experiencing" the taste in such profound ways, because I was going in slow motion. I finally figured out that developing patience, without intoxication, was a much better way to experience all the tastes that life offers.

Pot is not an evil weed, but it does have confusing effects on its chronic users, like me, several decades ago.

Posted by Sharon, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Sep 12, 2009 at 4:36 pm

Pot is a third world handicapping drug.

It is toxic to the developing teenage brain and should not be used by those under 21 yrs.

As for adults who smoke it, great, less competition for the rest of us.

Posted by Alan R, a resident of the Palo Alto Hills neighborhood, on Sep 13, 2009 at 9:28 am

Marijuana should be legalized for the following reasons:

The prohibition of marijuana makes it dangerous to hike off trails in the palo alto foothills.

The prohibition of marijuana causes quite a bit of environmental destruction due to the construction of clandestine gardens.

The prohibition of marijuana is an unjust restriction on the right to pursue happiness.

The prohibition of marijuana causes the substance to be easily available to kids, in fact it is much easier to purchase than alcohol for the under 21 crows.

The prohibition of marijuana causes otherwise law abiding gardeners to have a felony record for growing a non-toxic plant.

Recent studies with large sample sizes show that smoking marijuana does not cause lung cancer or schizophrenia. Web Link Web Link

Marijuana is much safer than alcohol for several reasons - It is less toxic than aspirin, does not cause severe motor skill impairment, does not cause violent, aggressive behavior and does not cause a hangover.

There are no good reasons to use the criminal justice system to penalize otherwise law abiding citizens who happen to smoke or grow marijuana.

Posted by Baldy in the Grey Caddy, a resident of the Fairmeadow neighborhood, on Sep 14, 2009 at 1:44 pm

Well aside from just putting illegal growing operations out of business. The US can benefit more than just taxing it as a tobacco product. The hemp plant is also very poised to destroy the paper making industry and cotton industry as well. It could also provide more Bio-diesel per volume compared to corn and soybean. Hemp fabric lasts longer is stronger and actually holds more color dye than any other natural fabric. It is way cheaper to produce and less costly to maintain from a farming and clothing perspective. This alone negates the paper, corn, soybean, and cotton industry which are 4 of the main industries here in the US. That means too many people would lose business and money if marijuana was ever to be used to its full potential. Not only that ,but the US has the potential to be the worlds leading hemp supplier. That helps our gross domestic product, and makes other countries come and give us their money; instead of us giving our money to them. THese are only 2 raw materials that hemp produces. We can make a myriad of products from paper and hemp cloth. The only problem is that the paper companies and clothing companies, will not allow hemp to be cultivated. Who wants competition in a world where your the king of paper and thread. Did you ever look into the organizations that are funding anti-drug commercials? Do people really give money away to good causes cause its a good thing to do? Were not talking writing a check to your local charity organization here, this is millions upon billions of dollars. I dont know a single businessman or philantropist that gives away this kind of money with out getting something out of it. That is my argument for marijuana as a product, and not a recreational drug.

As for the petty argument of making it legal for recreational consumption. BAH! I could careless about who is smoking and who is not. I've never seen anyone die or get killed in a marijuana induced car collision, and I've been around more than my share of driving potheads. (Even during the ice and snow in Chicago) On the other hand, I've seen 7-8 collisions due to alcohol. My best friends Dad died from liver failure ,due to the excessive alcohol he drank on a daily basis for years. Never seen anyone keel over and die, me included, for smoking pot 10-20 yrs. Schizofrenia people say..... Don't make me laugh. Whens the last time a schizo, did something to you and your family?? I've seen drunks kill themselves, others, their family, their kids. I just cant see what these other people are talking about when they say marijuana is as bad as drinking or tobacco. Even the people who were users at one point, try to contest the argument by playing both sides. "Oh I was a smoker, but now I've woken up" Well thats great, and I commend you on changing your life for what you think is better for you. As for me, i've just stated what I've seen and what I have percieved through my experience in this lifetime.

I dont really care if Marijuana is illegal or legal. What I do care about is government and corporations, holding back the advancement of our country and the advancement of its people, for their own power and monetary gain. Wish there was an organization out there that actually makes the government do what its supposed to do. Work for the mutual advancment of our country and its people. Funny how people are allowed to gather peacefully in protest, but what does it actually accomplish. When leaders can make the rules and live with out consequences, what happens to the country and its people. I guess we'll all find out in the years to come.

"If you wanna win you cant be scared to lose."

Baldy in tha Grey Caddy

Posted by Al, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Sep 14, 2009 at 3:52 pm

Very well said, Baldy!

Posted by John, a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on Sep 14, 2009 at 8:57 pm

I'd like to see some actual statistics on accidents caused by using pot. As for any health problems it causes, I read an article several years ago about a study that was done to determine any health problems that long term, daily use causes. The only problem it causes, according to the study, is short term memory loss, but that eventually goes away when the user cleans up.

Otherwise, pot is psychologically addictive. When I went to college a lot of the students were chronic users. In fact, it was hard to find anyone who lived on campus who wasn't. I knew many of these students who never completed their classwork and didn't get any credit for that quarter, or who dropped out altogether. Then they wouldn't get a job because they were too busy getting high and gazing off into space. They tried to get other people to give them money instead. I saw people in panic and desperation when their stash ran out and they couldn't get more right away, just like with any other drug addict.

People use pot to self-medicate themselves for emotional pain. the "high" is caused by the brain being deprived of all the oxygen it needs. Teens who become dependent on pot may resort to stealing to support their habit, just like other drug addicts do. They, and other chronic pot users, may manipulate others into doing things for them so that they can just get high all day without having to handle life's responsibilities. My son, who play computer games on-line, says he can tell when a gamer is high because their playing sucks. These same gamers have admitted it. Imagine how it affects them when they do anything else. They will never admit any of this, oh no, they'll deny it to the ends of the Earth.

In my experience, people who are clean and sober are more successful in life, more active and productive, responsible, emotionally stable, trustworthy, and respectful of other people. They are more focused. Sure, I tried it a number of times myself because I was curious, or I wanted to fit it. After my college experience, as well as my early twenties, I am not comfortable around people using pot, nor do I care to have such people as close friends.

Posted by julian, a resident of the Palo Verde neighborhood, on Sep 14, 2009 at 9:26 pm

2nd that - well put, Baldy.

Prohibition didn't work the first time, either.