Send this story Print this story

Adjust text size

Uploaded: Friday, July 10, 2009, 11:08 AM

Palo Alto 'dog haven' ahead?
Parks commissioners vote to solicit ideas from public

by Chris Kenrick
Palo Alto Online Staff

Posted by Greg, a resident of the Downtown North neighborhood, on Jul 9, 2009 at 5:19 pm

Enforce the law. If the fines are not high enough to discourage breaking the law, then increase the fines and increase enforcement. The city needs money right? What better group to pick on than criminals.

Posted by Hmmm, a resident of East Palo Alto, on Jul 9, 2009 at 6:36 pm

Yeah, Greg, like there's a budget to hire more animal control officers just to enforce leash laws. Perhaps if there were more dog parks or off-leash areas of the city, the laws wouldn't be violated so often in so many other areas. This issue is not going to go away, so it's good to know the city is seeking possible alternatives.

I'm not saying don't ever ticket those w/offleash dogs, because it can be a problem, as are the problems from so many who violate traffic and parking laws, ongoingly.

Howzabout ticketing all the jerks who park on the wrong side of the street? That's an easy revenue-generator, can be done on slow nights by cops on patrol.

Posted by Sarah, a resident of the Southgate neighborhood, on Jul 9, 2009 at 7:21 pm

Last year, I made the mistake of trying to run my dog on the baseball park on Middlefield. I think it is little league. Some guy who takes care of the place told me, in no uncertain terms, that dogs are not allowed. He was nice, but firm, and I decided it was not worth an argument.

I later found out that the park is private, and tightly controlled.

As I reflect on my experience, I was in the wrong. I love my dog, but the law is the law, and this guy simply enforced the law and the rules. It is the only time that I have had the rules enforced on me, because Palo Alto does not enforce the rules, in general. If you want the rules enforced, I suggest that you put this guy in charge.

Posted by Sharon, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Jul 9, 2009 at 7:36 pm

PA has much more serious problems than a few mutts off leash.

You never see dangerous dogs here, people are very aware of their financial exposure if their dog bites a human.

That economic reality in a community of high net worth and predatory attorneys takes care of the problem.

When it comes to dog on dog, if both are off leash then there is no exposure, otherwise you pay the cost of the injured dog.

In fact the vast majority of dogs will resolve their disputes fast and without bloodshed, the whelps of the less dominant dog may pluck their owners heart strings but do no harm and teach a valuable Darwinian lesson to both the dog and owner.

Posted by Outside Observer, a resident of another community, on Jul 9, 2009 at 8:15 pm

Ah, yes, Palo Alto, where a dog can't live a dog's life. but the "homeless" on University avenue most certainly can.

But then, in a liberal world, everything is backwards.

Sharon, you are 100% on target!

Posted by Crescent Park Dad, a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on Jul 9, 2009 at 8:16 pm

We have a dog. We observe all leash laws.

I can't believe that there are so many people out there that think that they can just go ahead and break the rules for their own convenience.

Here's something to think about. Our local elementary school is Duveneck...people let their dogs out there and poop all over the place (let alone urinate everywhere). Of course most people pick up the mess .... but despite best efforts there's still residue on the field. Now, fast forward to the school day ... 100's of kids playing on the same field that has become the neigbhorhood doggie-potty, falling down, etc. You get the picture.

So why is it the dog owner's right to soil the fields where kids play all the time?

Posted by Sharon, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 6:32 am

Cats kill millions of birds and other wild life every year, they leave the poor dead dead animals in school yards and other owners gardens where innocent children can come across the results of the cats savagery and be infected by the rotting victims.

In addition the cats contaminated droppings get washed into the ocean where they infect and kill baby otters by the thousand.

Local squirrels carry West Nile Virus and rabies as well as Typhus fever that can be fatal in humans.

At least dogs deter robbers and rapists from neighborhoods, provide protection from asthma in kids and prolong and enhance the quality of their owners lives.

Ducks spread bird flu, their dropping are all over parks and school grounds.

If Palo Altans want to be squeamish we should eliminate all animal life in the city, getting rid of the flying disease vectors will be a huge problem, but it will be for the sake of our children so who can argue with that.

Posted by keep the dogs off of the school yards please, a resident of the Fairmeadow neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 7:03 am

I don't want to be a cop. Please follow the rules.

Posted by Greg, a resident of the Downtown North neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 7:36 am

If dog people want a dog-only park, then lobby the city for one. Or buy some land and create a private park. Flaunting the law is just selfish.

Posted by jjostinato, a member of the Addison School community, on Jul 10, 2009 at 7:45 am

People let their dogs run off leash wherever they want. People park on the wrong side of the street. People play their car stereos too loud. Some motorcycles are run without mufflers. People park in front of fire hydrants.

If we have laws preventing theses things, we should enforce them; otherwise, we should eliminate the laws. But, to have the laws in place and ignore them is stupid, despite the argument that there are larger crimes that take precedence. Sure, if you are writing a ticket for an off-leash dog and there is a shooting, forget the dog and respond to the shooting. Otherwise, the police should be expected to react to any and every crime that they encounter.

Posted by SteveU, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 8:48 am
SteveU is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

Greg, You need zoning to build a dog park. It will never happen in the current Pristine Palo Alto. At least in any place you could WALK to :/

Posted by schmo, a resident of the College Terrace neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 10:23 am

I'll go to Mountain View to walk my dog, They will take anything that Palo Alto doesn't want!

Posted by Koa, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 10:35 am

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by Danny, a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 11:15 am

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by JIm H., a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 11:23 am

This just shows the disconnect in our city government. In one story we have Parks and Rec thinking about easing the leash law, and another story where the city is going to raise the fines for leash law violations.

Menlo park opens up the baseball field at Nealon Park in the am during the week. I'm sure Palo Alto can come up with a similar work around at some of the city parks. The Bayland fields or Hoover fields are fenced.

There's no need for it to be all or nothing.

Posted by nonsense, a resident of the Adobe-Meadows neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 11:57 am

Unless you have the same amount of dog havens as you have parks & schools, people will still let their dogs off the leash as they currently do. Adding these additional havens isn't going to change a thing.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 1:07 pm

Rather than designated parks, how about designated times of the day to allow dogs off leash in certain parks. I don't advocate this at school fields or around the play structures, but allowing dogs to exercise with their owners for say the hour after sunrise and hour before sunset seems a reasonable compromise for sharing the facilities with those who are nervouse around dogs off leash.

Posted by Leash laws are sensible, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 1:41 pm

We live in a semi-urban environment. Dogs outside of your fenced yard or a dog park belong on leash. Period.

I don't let my kids wander willy nilly everywhere, running in traffic unsupervised, chasing other park users, biting people, pooping on park lawns, attacking native species in our natural areas. Please keep your dog on a leash and properly supervised. You own him. You take care of him. You accepted that responsibility when you adopted your animal, just as I accepted responsibility when I had my kids.

I'd probably be more flexible if I hadn't experienced so many badly behaved dogs (and pet owners) in our parks. My daughter and I have been chased by off-leash dogs twice. In both cases, the irresponsible pet owners said, "He's never done anything like that before!"

In a semi-urban environment, leashing your animal is part of the program. You knew the ground rules when you adopted it. When we walk a dog on-leash, our dog is sometimes harrassed by off-leash dogs. It's a problem. Please be considerate and leash your dog.

Posted by Arf, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 2:30 pm

Leash laws would be easier to respect and enforce if there were better/more places/times where dogs could go to move and play like they were meant to (as this article suggests).

Living with little or no yard space (unless you're in the upper 15%), with only two dog runs in all of PA (neither of them of appreciable size), it's rather sad we don't really have the benefits of semi-urban or suburban life (you know, best of the city and the country).

PA and some residents simply don't appreciate the quality of life we sacrifice by not including diversity of lifestyles in the city's plans. We seem to find space for building new condos and other developments, but not to accommodate recreation areas (for dogs, bike lanes, etc) outside of the prescribed use (soccer, retail, soccer, etc). You're kidding yourself and no one else to think that anyone want dogs (let alone kids) to play in traffic.

Kids are precious and should have park space to compete at their organized sports, but making it and other uses always top priority is squeezing out places to run, play games, and yes, even with dogs.

While no one should be forced in the company of a dog, it's also sad that all these solutions force segregation. Amazingly, in other times and places, kids grow up playing with dogs and they don't have the problems we seem to be afraid of, despite all of our rules and regulations.

Posted by jjostinato, a member of the Addison School community, on Jul 10, 2009 at 3:21 pm

"Leash laws would be easier to respect and enforce if there were better/more places/times where dogs could go to move and play like they were meant to (as this article suggests)."

I've heard this logic before: if your city doesn't have a skateboard park, your city IS a skateboard park. So, if there were more parking spaces on my street, I wouldn't have to park in front of the hydrant. What if I want to practice archery...Palo Alto doesn't supply me a place to practice, so I should be able to do it at the public park?

If you want to own a dog, part of the responsibility of its care is learning where, when and how he can run and making provisions to do so. If you cannot follow the law, don't get a dog!

Posted by P.A. Native, a resident of Mountain View, on Jul 10, 2009 at 3:42 pm

All dogs should be leashed or in a crate. I don't want my kids to even see a dog because it might scare them. And when the dogs poop on the lawn at a school, there's residue like Crescent Park Dad said. What if a kid falls on a field and they happen to fall exactly where a dog pooped the night before? They're probably going to die of poop poisoning or something! It's extremely dangerous. That's why we must ban dogs at parks. Who ever heard of letting your dog run free in an open field anyway!?! That's not legal!

Oh and schmo, you're right. Mountain View will take JJ&F and you can have that iron statue from the HP Mayfield site. I guess Palo Alto does take from Mtn. View after all.

Posted by Rick, a resident of another community, on Jul 10, 2009 at 4:42 pm

Hi all I own DoodyCalls a Pet a waste removal company. This is a familiar problem all across the U.S. . There are no easy solutions, 40% of people own dogs.

1. Parks need to have pet waste stations. Provide the means to clean up and most people will. Owners should carry there on supplies, yes but that’s not always the case and you’re not going to catch the ones who don’t pick up.

2. Enforce the lease laws. But you should have a park for off leash. 40% is a large number. We are in the process of setting up a park in San Carlos. The dog owners need to come together. Not an easy task but it can be done. It is being done all across America.

3. Sharing fields has not proven to be a great solution can be done but confects can be very heated.

This will not go away you will need to work together. Dogs and people have very special bonds that if you have not owned one you don’t know what you’re missing. Working dogs save lives everyday and not just physically. So a little understanding can go along way. We see what our K9 friends do for elderly and disable for some they are they only friends and they need a place to walk there dogs and meet other owners.

Take care all

FYI on the 18th we are having a fund raiser at Pet food Express stores all over the bay area to rise funds to bullet resistant vests and medical care for retire police K9s.

Posted by A Palo Alto parent, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 5:57 pm

Wouldn't it make sense to have more designated areas and times for dog owners to take their dogs off their leashes? The areas could be monitored and professionally cleaned, and the dog owners could pay an annual fee for the privilege. That way the city could raise more money for the schools, and the dogs would be happy.

Posted by Hmmmm, a resident of East Palo Alto, on Jul 10, 2009 at 7:51 pm

Maybe PA can check in w/MP on how they used existing fields to see if that's a viable option, what the pros & cons are, what issues are relevant, etc.

Posted by Phil, a resident of the Community Center neighborhood, on Jul 10, 2009 at 11:12 pm

I have a dog that's generally on leash but it would sure be nice to have a place where he could run free without breaking the law. With the exception of Pulgas Rudge park in San Carlos there's almost nowhere for a dog to run free, yet many of the county parks permit horses to tear up and manure-up the trails. What would be the big deal to have a place for out dogs to run?

Posted by neighbor, a resident of another community, on Jul 11, 2009 at 10:37 am

Off-leash dogs belong in back yards or dog parks, not loose on the street. I have always had dogs --- adorable spoiled dogs,both big and small --- but they were never off-leash. They are/were still animals, whose behavior could be governed by dog instinct, not by human-like thoughts.

Dogs are unpredicable when loose -- they see another dog/cat, smell something enticing, and there go the human rules.

At the very least, have you trained your dog to pick up and bag it's own poop?? At the worst, do you really think like a dog, or do you believe it denies evolution and thinks like you?

Issues:

-- I am partially disabled and have been knocked over by an unleashed dog. I shouldn't have to go the ER, because you are too lazy to walk your dog on a leash.

-- My neighbor was attacked twice by a a neighbor's loose dog as she walked her baby in a stroller. The dog ran across and down the street to get her and attacked from the back. Perhaps there was some noise in the stroller wheels that set the dog off --- but the dog was offleash, the owner was in his home and said his dog was trained and would never hurt anyone.

The only way to predict dog behavior in public places is to keep it on leash and be it's "leader." Take your dog to a dog park to run free, just like I -- and your neighbors -- do. It's the law for a reason.

There are people out whose "freedom for my dog" mantras (to excuse their own lazy,selfish behavior) can hurt others. Not much different to let dogs loose, text on cell phones on the freeway, park in disabled spaces, etc. etc.

HOWEVER --- THESE rationalizations about the leash law can kill, hurt, or maim you or your kids.

Obey the law, put a leash on the doggie and go for a walk. It'll be good for everyone.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Jul 11, 2009 at 10:48 am

I don't think anyone is advocating allowing dogs to roam free out on the streets so that "lazy" dog owners don't have to go out with them.

What is being advocating is somewhere to take a dog for a walk without being leashed.

Dog parks, allow dogs to run in a pen which has no grass, but has dirt which means that the dogs get really dirty and also gives dogs a pack mentality when offleash.

Taking a dog for a walk while offleash gives the dog and his owner a great deal of ability to learn how to behave as a domesticated animal rather than a caged animal. Dogs are now companions rather than work dogs, but they can still be trained by sensible owners who want to obey the law, but also want to be able to walk with an unleashed dog so that it gets the exercise it needs rather than the exercise the owner needs. Dog pens are dirty and full of other dogs, there is very little owner/dog opportunities for training.

Posted by Pat Markevitch, a resident of the Downtown North neighborhood, on Jul 11, 2009 at 10:54 am

Good Morning. The Parks and Recreation Commission's vote last week was to agree to set-up a community meeting to discuss possible recreational opportunities for dogs and their owners. The goal of this meeting is to hear from the public about what they want to see changed or not changed with respect to this issue. We want to hear all sides, all ideas and comments. This will be an open meeting and all are welcome to attend. We want to hear from dog owners as well as people who don't own dogs. The meeting will hopefully be in September and I will post the date and location as soon as it is locked in. Thank you.

Pat Markevitch

Chair, Parks & Recreation Commission

Posted by jjostinato, a member of the Addison School community, on Jul 11, 2009 at 11:07 am

Keep in mind that most people who will be motivated to attend will be dog owners as it is they who want to change the law to suit their needs.

It is little consolation to me that, when I am pushing my baby in a stroller at the park, if a dog attacks us, the owner is financially liable for stitching us up or, in the case of the baby, paying for the funeral. If you feel that your dog needs to run free, move to a rural area. Don't buy a big dog and then ask your neighbors to sacrifice their safety and peace of mind for your poor decision.

Posted by neighbor, a resident of another community, on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:38 pm

This was a really strange comment......."Taking a dog for a walk while offleash gives the dog and his owner a great deal of ability to learn how to behave as a domesticated animal rather than a caged animal. Dogs are now companions rather than work dogs, but they can still be trained by sensible owners who want to obey the law, but also want to be able to walk with an unleashed dog so that it gets the exercise it needs rather than the exercise the owner needs. Dog pens are dirty and full of other dogs, there is very little owner/dog opportunities for training..."

SIR/MADAM:

Dogs are not "caged" in backyards and houses. Peninsula dogs live a pretty good life in nice surroundings. They are not psychologically damaged. True, they need more exercise SO WALK YOUR DOG MORE..ON A LEASH.

Even with their cushy life, dogs are still dogs and will always be. They are not and will never be furry humans with human judgement. They are already "domesticated" (unless you have a wolf)...but YOU need to train them.

There are LOTS of opportunities for human/dog interaction and training (everytime you speak to the dog, you are training it/or not training it. If it isn't going so well, you and the dog can go to dog training classes.

Do not subject others to your unleashed dog's naturally unpredicable behavior. No matter how trained it is, it is a dog not a human, the dog can't help some behaviors and someone can get hurt by your animal-child.

Get Cesar Milan's book --- or any other dog training book. No one advocates less bonding between you and your dog.

But one of you is a dog, one is human.

You don't need an unleashed dog, and endanger others, to have a bonded, exercised dog or a happy fulfilling relationship for you and your pet.

You're not walking the dog enough. Again...you need to walk it MORE and ON A LEASH.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Jul 11, 2009 at 2:17 pm

Neighbor

I do not have a dog.

I did grow up with dogs and lived in an area where I could take long walks with my offleash dog without bothering anyone. This is the way to ideally exercise a dog.

A dog needs to be able to run at its own speed, not the speed of its owner, on grass where it chooses. It can be trained to come at call, to fetch, to heel, but it only does this well when there are no other dogs around and no other distractions.

I would never suggest putting an unleashed dog in an area where there are small children playing or will play. The ideas of sharing facilities would never be sharing with small children. By the way, I think our children's playareas should also be fenced in so that small children cannot wander off by themselves if their parent is distracted by another child who needs attention. I personally have never been hurt or frightened by anyone's dog in a play area, but I have had a child of mine wander off while I was distracted changing a sibling's diaper or getting lunches organized.

Posted by Tamtom, a resident of Mountain View, on Jul 11, 2009 at 3:44 pm

I don't own a dog. I have two small children. The problem with not enforcing leash laws that I see is that then there is an unwritten social compact that it is not polite to complain to people about their off-leash dogs.

I've had somebody who was watching both her niece and her dog bring her large dog, unleashed, to the children's play area, right among the slides and swings and near the sandbox. The dog came up to the water play area and started lapping up water. The dog was as tall as my 18 month old, and so I was pretty concerned.

She saw that I was concerned and just said "Don't worry, he's good". I didn't feel comfortable protesting more firmly because there were lots of other off-leash dogs in other parts of the playground.

I know that there are many people who say that kids have grown up with dogs for generations and it hasn't harmed them. But those dogs and kids were part of the same tribe. They lived together in the same house, and had known each other since either the dog or the baby was an infant. The dog is likely to behave very differently around small children who are NOT part of its tribe and who it is not acclimatized to (and who are not acclamatized to it).

Posted by Sarah, a resident of the Southgate neighborhood, on Jul 11, 2009 at 4:55 pm

If the city of Palo Alto does not enforce its off leash laws, and a child is bitten, is the city liable? I ask this, because off leash laws are only rarely enforced in Palo Alto. I know this, because I walk my dog in various parks in Palo Alto. The only time I have been stopped was at the baseball (little league?) field on Middlefield.

Posted by Nut Head, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Jul 12, 2009 at 12:34 pm

This is a very frustrating discussion. Leash laws are almost impossible to enforce unless we had a much larger number of law enforcement officers strolling around, so no matter what the rules are, and what sort of officially sanctioned off-leash areas there are, people will continue to go to their local schools and let their dogs play off leash. Why wouldn't they?

I'm sure 99 percent of the time, everything is fine, but it irritates me when people just openly don't care about the laws in our community. The laws have a good purpose - to prevent the small number of cases where a kid or adult is injured.

I'm still haunted by reading about that case a couple years ago of the boy who was attacked and seriously injured by an otherwise good dog who just got "spooked" by something. As a dog owner, and parent of 2 kids, it really bothers me! I hope that young man is doing well now.

Many of us feel so uncomfortable reminding others to follow the rules. I guess that's why you don't usually see to many off leash dogs in New York City. People don't have a problem with confrontation there.

Posted by Sarah, a resident of the Southgate neighborhood, on Jul 12, 2009 at 1:16 pm

Nut Head,

"Leash laws are almost impossible to enforce"

I don't see why that is true. If police officers and animal control officers would simply start writing citations, and the City would stand behind them, it would almost be completely gone in a couple of weeks.

Posted by Hmmmm, a resident of East Palo Alto, on Jul 12, 2009 at 2:57 pm

Enforcing leash laws is almost impossible for any significant length of time, unless your city wants to spend more $$ hiring ACOs and/or having the cops focus on walking around giving tickets to those violating the leash laws. It's all about where to focus the human resources to teach people to keep their dogs onleash & to increase revenue for your city.

These issues burble up & then go back down, depending on what's driving it - a desire for a dogpark, or a recent scary offleash dog issue, or something similar.

Posted by Paulette, a resident of another community, on Jul 12, 2009 at 3:48 pm

Hi all- being part of a committee to set up a new dog park in San Carlos, we have been through a year of disussing what will work and what will not. We have gathered petitions from the good people of San Carlos and met with City Hall officials. If you would like some tips including how to save the city money by getting local businesses to sponser pet waste bins, bags and clean-up, just ask. We are here to help. sanmateo@doodycalls.com

Posted by Midtown Mom, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Jul 13, 2009 at 11:43 am

I believe that in New York City dogs are unofficially allowed to be off-leash before 8 AM within certain parks. Palo Alto could require that off-leash dogs:

(a) are only allowed in specified parks early in the morning when children are typically not around;

(b) pay an extra license fee; and

(c) pass the Canine Good Citizen test (the American Kennel Club sponsors the test).

Posted by Walter, a resident of the Fairmeadow neighborhood, on Jul 13, 2009 at 6:08 pm

I am surprised at the tone of many of these messages. Almost all laws are basically flawed. The intent is almost always more subtle than the law written. I saw a 8 week old mini dachshund in the park. It was far smaller than even a small cat. I doubt a leash exists that would fit but presumably the law has written applied to that dog. I would be reasonably certain that everyone posting a message to strictly enforce the leash law breaks the law while driving or biking most days. They likely break other laws that for the circumstances they find themselves in (using a cell in a car even while stationary is now illegal) they think it is too strict. As far as I can tell from the news people being attacked by dogs off leash is not a serious problem in Palo Alto. Owners not picking up poop is illegal and will happen whether a dog is on or off a leash. We all need to be a little tolerant of behavior that we do not have but one that brings pleasure to our fellow citizens.

Posted by Mom, a member of the Jordan Middle School community, on Jul 15, 2009 at 6:37 pm

I completely agree with "Crescent Park Dad" in saying that there is still residue on the grass after poop has been scooped and then middle school and elementary school students run around and fall on the grass in P.E. or recess. A student's hand can fall on poop residue and then the student goes to eat lunch - a sandwich perhaps. E-coli is very unsafe for anyone.

There should be a law that dog owners have to pick up the poop with their bare hands. That'll stop 'em from using property as toilets.

We have had to build a fence so dog owners would not use our lawn as a toilet.

At the least, City Council should not allow dogs on playgrounds or school grounds, and it should be enforced with offenders receiving citations, increasing the fee for each offense.