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Report: Dearth of grocery stores in Palo Alto
But city's department stores, restaurants continue to attract shoppers from throughout the region

by Gennady Sheyner
Palo Alto Weekly Staff

Posted by pat, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 10:03 am

How much we pay for this study that tells us what we already know?

Posted by Kelly, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 10:08 am

If you have lived here you would know that for the last ten years.

Residents skip the expensive specialty stores and go to Menlo Safeway or Cal St Safeway Mt View.

Posted by davidv, a resident of Menlo Park, on May 15, 2009 at 10:17 am

Reminds me of years [decades] ago when you could not get an alcholic drink in Palo Alto, because of the Stanford deed restrictions, but could go to Whiskey Gulch in what is now EPA for a drink.

The politicians and the Palo Alto "Way" of deciding what should be done has resulted in some interesting unintended consequences. We intend to be "Green" but have to drive miles to find a grocery store that has reasonable prices.

Posted by stupid newbie, a resident of another community, on May 15, 2009 at 10:21 am

Not enough car dealerships? How strange to lump that in with grocery stores and gas stations.

Posted by Marvin, a resident of the Charleston Gardens neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 10:27 am

Looks like they have two threads generated from the same story. This is what I posted on the other thread:

Look at Alma Plaza-we could have had a nice sized grocery store there, but the city council's inaction coupled with the actions of local residents halted that effort.

Putting a large supermarket in PA is a no go due to the unwritten "20000 square foot rule"--since JJ&F, for example, has to be able to compete, we cannot allow any large supermarkets in town. Rather than let the rules of supply and demand decide what stores succeed, our city has decided to micromanage this issue to the detriment of local residents.

Also a large supermarket with be fought against with usual "too much noise, too much traffic, quality of life" arguments that come up with any new proposed development.

Remember this comes from a city whose leaders constantly trumpet the "walkable neighborhoods" concept. All talk and no action on that regard

Posted by GM Silver, a resident of the Greenmeadow neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 10:38 am

We are so conveniently located at the south end of town--Costco, Milk Pail, Wal-Mart, Cal Ave Safeway, Trader Joe's, even a Whole Foods nearby. Ross, Sears, Target--not upscale or luxury, but shopping for the average resident. And our own convenient Cal Train station!

Even a car dealership (Toyota). Does it get any better? Too bad very little of the tax revenue goes to Palo Alto, but that's due to our "Palo Alto Process."

Posted by Sheri Furman, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 10:41 am

John McNellis is NOT "required to bring a 20,000-square-foot grocery store to Alma Plaza." The ordinance says a minimum of 11,500 square feet shall be devoted to a grocery and that's pretty much what we'll get.

Posted by liberty, a resident of the Downtown North neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 10:47 am

"For developers, the biggest obstacle to bringing a large grocery store to the city is the dearth of space."

Actually, the biggest obstacle is the city council and planning commission.

There have been many developers who have found the space, made the plans and received the investments, only to be told by our sanctimonious city leaders that their plan has an inappropriate ratio of different kinds of space. This problem is a very good example of well intended people in government overreaching and, in turn, causing bigger problems.

Posted by YSK, a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 10:59 am

How much DID this 'study' cost? All you had to do was pull open a Palo Alto phone book, randomly pick a name, call and the 7yr old that answered the phone on the other end could have told you this.

If somebody would please pay me 50 grand I would like to conduct a study to ascertain if Palo Alto has enough coffee shops to properly accommodate the needs of the community.

Posted by Samuray Akarvardar, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 11:00 am

We definitely need grocery stores in walkable neighborhoods, not fancy superstores with large parking lots. Why not have a permanent farmers market all through the year or a market for two-three days a week?

Palo Alto also needs open space for restaurants and cafes. Such things create a more social and lively environment for eating and relaxing outside. In this sense, Palo Alto CA is like one of the cities in cold climate!

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 11:04 am

Oh my heck. They needed a study for this? Wow.

The residents have been screaming about this for years! YET, they keep building more and more and more dense housing - WHERE'S EVERYONE GOING TO GROCERY SHOP?

And, by the way, where' is everyone going to go to school?

You can't PRETEND to build dense housing for the sake of the environment (we all know the dense housing is purely for the sake of lining the developers pockets) - and then force everyone to get in their cars EVERY DAY just to get their daily chores done. Its time this city knocks it off with the housing development until they solve the issues of services for residents (shopping, schools, playing fields - to name three)

Posted by Matt, a resident of the College Terrace neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 11:07 am

Has anyone noticed all the empty store fronts on El Cam after you pass through Page Mill and head towards Charleston? It is like a ghost town. Thus, it is not like there isn't retail space for some retailers to come into Palo Alto (not a grocery store of course). Why is it no one talks about that part of Palo Alto and the lack of vendors there?

Posted by PatrickD, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 11:10 am

I'd be happy if something like the Milk Pail opened up at the T&C Village next to the new Trader Joes or even on Cal Avenue near Mollie Stones. Who needs a new mega-mart?

Posted by soccer mom, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 11:17 am

I live in walking distance to Piazza's market, but rarely shop there. Nor do I shop at Stanford mall. As the mother of two teens, I am looking for value. I spend my retail dollars in Redwood City at Discount Grocery and Kmart or in Mountain View at Walmart. For clothes I head to Gilroy to the outlet mall or to Daly City for Serramonte. I may not be representative of the Palo Alto population, but then again, there are probably more people like me than there are folks who frequent Nieman Marcus and Whole (Paycheck) Foods. I would be thrilled to have Discount Grocery Outlet at Alma Plaza.

Posted by eeyore, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 11:26 am

silly thread- waste of money on research.

Posted by resident of Barron Park, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 11:44 am

And, then the City wonders why they have a deficit, when they hire someone to do a study about lack of tax funds from grocery stores. We residents in South Palo Alto have been begging for a value priced grocery store for years. All-American wanted to upgrade, Planning Com., & Council said no. We wanted a replacement grocery for Alma Plaza over 10 years ago and there are still problems. I shop for pickups at JJ&F to support a family owned grocery in Palo Alto. Expansion plans for JJ&F started 2 or 3 years ago for an expansion--that went away. Of course, I buy at Trader Joe's, Costco, deMartini's, Safeway on CA Ave. in Mt. View. and if I can't find it there I shop at Piazza's for high end items. Frankly, I wish south Palo Alto was a part of Mountain View, they at least know how to get things accomplished in less than 10 years.

Posted by Douglas Moran, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 11:56 am
Douglas Moran is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

On why Palo Alto needed to waste money on this report: Developers (such as McNellis at Alma Plaza) come before City Council claiming that their site can support little or no retail and that Council should approve conversion to housing (which yields larger profits). Residents can point out the flaws, contradictions and false claims in the presentations by the developer and his hired consultants.

A report such as this may help reduce the wiggle room that Council has used to ignore commonsense in order to give developers unwarranted exceptions (and unwarranted profits).

Example: On Alma Plaza, the developer's consultant testified that people were making fewer trips to "grocery stores" to support her claim that there was inadequate support for a grocery store at Alma Plaza. What she was _actually_ reporting was that people were making fewer trips to the _mega_ grocery stores and more trips to medium-sized and smaller grocery stores. Council member Kishimoto spotted this and asked a question revealing that the statement was misleading, but the Council plowed ahead and gave the developer all the major parts of what he wanted.

Posted by Marvin, a resident of the Charleston Gardens neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 12:06 pm

Could Mr Moran post a link to back up his claim vis a vis Alma Plaza? When did the developer's consultant make the report--after Albertson's pulled out completely and left the deed restriction that only a very small grocery be allowed in Alma Plaza?

Was the grocery store proposed initially for Alma Plaza considered to be mega-sized? What is considered to be a medium-sized grocery store?

Why ignore the fact that Lucky/Albertsons came back again and again with proposals to keep a good sized grocery store at Alma Plaza? These proposals fell into the PA Process black hole, due to local opposition, the Charleston Road building moratorium and a lack of spine by the city council. Bottom we could have had a nice grocery store at Alma Plaza today, instead.....

This is a black mark for the city council and especially Council member Kishimoto, who has been at the forefront of trumpeting the "walkable neighborhood" issue.

Posted by Douglas Moran, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Douglas Moran is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

On vacant stores along El Camino:

The problem in this stretch was well-known in the early 1990s when I first became involved.

The original lots were narrow and deep, but as El Camino was widened from 2-lanes to 4 and then 6, these lots became narrow and _shallow_. Only the smallest retail operations fit and many of them have problems because of inadequate parking.

There have been multiple studies over the years (I have participated in several) that have come to naught. The City refuses to even address the simplest of the major problems: Adding signage to direct people to parking that is commonly behind the stores.

Posted by Survey Suggestion, a resident of the Ventura neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 12:16 pm

Somebody should conduct a survey of all Palo Alto residents and just ask where they buy the bulk of their groceries. Hey Palo Alto Online, perhaps you can conduct the survey? I'm willing to bet that South Palo Alto generally prefers Safeway in Mountain View and North Palo Alto generally prefers Safeway in Menlo Park. Perhaps if this were done credibly, the city council would take notice. The only reason why Albertson's in Alma Plaza failed was because it wasn't big enough to compete with the supermarkets in Mountain View. As a resident who always shops in Mountain View for groceries, this is SO obvious.

Posted by Marvin, a resident of the Charleston Gardens neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 12:19 pm

"The City refuses to even address the simplest of the major problems: Adding signage to direct people to parking that is commonly behind the stores."

I could not agree with Mr Moran more. ANd this from a city that is pushing a Destination Palo Alto campaign. How do they expect all the tourists to know where to go?

Posted by Douglas Moran, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Douglas Moran is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

MEETING ALERT: Tuesday May 19, 7-9pm, Lucie Stern Community Center: City-sponsored community meeting on future of the area discussed below.

Palo Alto is in the process of greasing the skids under more retail. The City is currently developing plans to encourage high density housing in the California Avenue and Cal-Venture (area around Fry's) sections. Although these plans _allow_ for mixed use--commercial and housing--the reality is that what gets built is predominantly housing and the commercial is offices, not retail.

The Fry's site--(one of) the last site for a big box store--is currently zoned to have been converted to all housing. Conversion has been delayed because of serious problems with toxics in the shallow groundwater, but the City has a history of allowing developers to get away with understating toxic problems.

A rational City would be rezoning the Fry's site require retail, but ...

Posted by Douglas Moran, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Douglas Moran is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

On the claims (including above) that "residents" blocked various retail uses, including grocery stores, is disingenuous. I have been involved in a variety of these and the residents supporting retail routinely vastly out numbers those opposed. In one case, the "opposition" was only two people whose concerns had been carefully considered and found to be without merit.

The "residents" opposed for a particular retail development are typically:

1. immediate neighbors whose concerns are not being listened to nor addressed.

2. residents representing various special interests

Ask yourself about the agenda of people who choose to misrepresent the few as being the consensus (that is, "some residents" vs "residents").

Posted by Marvin, a resident of the Charleston Gardens neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 12:50 pm

"Residents" have in the past blocked various retail uses. Without talking about numbers, the facts speak for themselves. I never stated that there was a consensus--just that local opposition has prevented a grocery store in Alma plaza from being built, as an example. What case is Mr Moran referring to ("the "opposition" was only two people whose concerns had been carefully considered and found to be without merit.")?

The problem is that the City Council refuses to try to reach some kind of consensus so that progress can be made. Alma Plaza has been an issue for 10+ years. How many years will Edgewood Plaza drag on?

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 12:53 pm

As a local resident I find that small grocery stores are plentiful if I want a few specialty or mid week items, but for my weekly family grocery shopping I drive (because I need the trunk) to Mountain View where I can find what I need in one stop. I want a large grocery store with in house bakery for bread, bagels, etc., a full size deli which has more than just sandwiches, a great selection of good produce, floral, wines, cheeses, as well as being able to buy detergent and other necessities at reasonable prices and so on and so forth. A small grocery store may do one aspect well, but I want to spend my $300 weekly grocery bill as expediently as possible and get it all done together. Otherwise, I am just adding to traffic by driving out of town.

Posted by galen, a resident of the Ventura neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 1:05 pm

Grocery stores, that's not what residents of Palo Alto need or want! No, we need more high-density housing... just ask John McNellis and the geniuses on the City Council.

If you happen to be a developer or on the City Council, this is satire!

I've lived here for 29 years and i'm disgusted with how the City Council has managed the affairs of this city that i love. Protecting crooked cops, approving Tasers, destroying commercial space to build high-density housing, and now an elevated High-Speed Rail line... in a few years there will be nothing left of what we all loved about our fair city.

-- Dennis "galen" Mitrzyk

Posted by Midtowner, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 1:08 pm

Regarding gas stations, I would really love for the long shuttered Midtown gas station to reopen. It was so convenient.

Posted by Skeptical, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 1:14 pm

If you thought a study to tell us there is nothing to buy in P.A. was a waste of money, wait until you see what we paid for this gem of information.

Web Link

Posted by Douglas Moran, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Douglas Moran is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

RE: Marvin, a resident of the Charleston Gardens neighborhood (two previous posts)

On the consultant's misleading testimony, see my PA Weekly letter of 17 May 2006 entitled "Misleading Testimony?" (Web Link) as a starting place (date and ref) for more detail.

On my reference to "In one case, the "opposition" was only two people whose concerns had been carefully considered and found to be without merit.", the case I was referring to was the inclusion of Alma Plaza into the Charleston traffic corridor study, one of the cases that "Marvin" chooses to categorize as "local opposition" in his previous message.

As to "Marvin"'s other "questions": these have been answered over and over again in previous discussions.

Posted by P.A. Native, a resident of Mountain View, on May 15, 2009 at 1:26 pm

I used to get my gas there all the time. I passed by it this week and couldn't help but wonder what the plans for that site are. Is it going to be behind a fence for another 5 years?

I think a lot of these problems have to do with the over-sensitive residents of P.A. Sometimes progress requires change. Not everyone is going to be pleased and not every opinion can be validated. The future of your city is coming whether you like it or not. You might as well be on board.

Posted by Marvin, a resident of the Charleston Gardens neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 1:31 pm

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Isn't it a fact that the Alma Plaza was included in the Charleston traffic corridor study at the urging of a Charleston Meadow neighborhood leader who was opposed to the Hyatt remodel (and look what that go us in the end).

"As to "Marvin"'s other "questions": these have been answered over and over again in previous discussions."

Which of the following questions have been answered over and over again in previous discussions?

1) Was the grocery store proposed initially for Alma Plaza considered to be mega-sized? What is considered to be a medium-sized grocery store?

2) How many years will Edgewood Plaza drag on?

Posted by Etaoin Shrdlu, a resident of another community, on May 15, 2009 at 1:36 pm

Aha! There's been a consultant all along! Now it's time for some Palo Alto Process to delay, ignore, and if possible extort from Stanford. In case they haven't noticed, JJ&F is a grocery.

Posted by Walter_E_Wallis, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Walter_E_Wallis is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

Palo Alto is a textbook example of perfection being the enemy of good enough.

Posted by Consumer, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 2:36 pm

<i>"I'm willing to bet that South Palo Alto generally prefers Safeway in Mountain View and North Palo Alto generally prefers Safeway in Menlo Park."</i>

I'm just wondering why the perfectly serviceable Midtown Safeway seems to no longer exist in the minds of many people posting here. My family shops there, and that store seems to be doing a brisk local business.

And as for Piazza, not everything one can buy there are "high end" items - a number of staples are quite competitive with Safeway's prices. My family shops there too, for many things, as it is within walking distance from us.

Posted by palo alto mom, a resident of the Embarcadero Oaks/Leland neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 3:46 pm

Safeway in Midtown - I shop there a lot but they have a limited number of items, I need to head to a big Safeway every week or two for many of our staples. They also have mediocre fruits and veggies and no bakery. Prices are just ok except for sale items.

Piazzas - fabulous meats and produce, delicious baked items, but again, a limited selection. Prices better then I would expect for a small store.

Nob Hill - in Mountain View, Grant Road, near my dog groomers, every six weeks or so I have the pleasure of shopping there, huge store, beautifully decorated, great produce and meat, a bakery, deli, wine tastings friendly staff and GREAT prices.

Posted by jb, a resident of the Leland Manor/Garland Drive neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 3:53 pm

Spoiled and demanding picky children!!

There are so many more stores within 15 minutes travel in Palo Alto than you could possibly find in many parts of the country. My sister lives in rural Pennsylvania where the ONLY groceries are a 25 minute drive to a Walmart superstore. I guarantee on most days not a single Palo Altan would buy the vegetables she has access to. No, this is not Appalachia. Most of the property goes for perfectly recognizable Palo Alto style prices.

Palo Alto, you have no idea how fortunate you are.

Posted by jb, a resident of the Leland Manor/Garland Drive neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 4:04 pm

My apologies. Now that I have that off my chest, "the study, released this week by Walnut Creek-based consulting firm Applied Development Economics," was probably contracted by developers dying to build huge shopping meccas for some of the wealthiest citizens outside of Wyoming.

Resign yourselves to the fact that no store could carry everything you personally want. The vagueries of markets, warehouses, and merchandisers make it unlikely that you will ever find all you want under one roof. Just take note of where you can find what you like and go there to buy it.

Everyone seems to be hoping that if the grocery store is just large enough, they will carry EVERYTHING that "I" want in one shopping stop. I guarantee that a store that large is the lasst place you want to stop when all you need is two bananas and a half gallon of milk.

Posted by Spender, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 4:06 pm

I only shop in grocery stores that don't pollute the atmosphere with so called "music". The only one I know of in Palo Alto is Barron Park Market. Are there any others?

Otherwise it's usually Milk Pail, Costco, and Target for me.

About car dealerships, let's stay with a "green" image and not let any new gas guzzler dealers in!

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 4:16 pm

What's wrong with a bit of music while you shop (as long as it is not advertising). I would rather have music than have to listen to other people's cell phone conversations - really bad manners.

Posted by Marie, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Marie is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

I've lived in palo Alto for almost 20 years. My recollection is that Alma Plaza was (and still is) zoned for a 30,000 sq. ft. grocery but the developer insisted on 40,000 which would have eliminated most of the other neighborhood stores. Although I was not an active opponent, I was glad to see that plan failed, as I think a development similar to the existing situation was preferable. I spent a lot of money at most of the stores there when it was active. BJ Bull's had great pasties, Fandango pizza has the best pizza. I also liked the little Chinese restaurant, vacuum cleaner repair store and the dry cleaners/alterations. Even the donut shop was pretty good.

When Lucky's couldn't get what they wanted, they sold the property with a "dog-in-the-manger" deed restriction that limited the size of a grocery store to less than what zoning allowed, presumably to eliminate competition with the Lucky's/Albertson's in Mountain View. Ironically, that store has since closed but we are stuck with the deed restriction.

I did not actively oppose any of the proposals. However, I do believe the Alma Plaza story is much more reflective of developer greed than it was of neighbor intransigience. The most successful development in recent years, SOFA, near downtown Palo Alto, was the result of intense neighbor suggestions and negotiations to and with the builder. Even in this down economy, these units sell rapidly and well. This is in great contrast to "Arbor Ugly" which was developed by D.R. Horton, a Texas real estate developer. In Texas (and I lived there for nearly five long years), many cities, notably Houston, don't believe in pesky zoning ordinances. Thus, it is not surprising that they looked at any restrictions on their immediate profit, vs. the long term value to the community, as something to be negotiated away, even if the zoning restrictions existed when they purchased the property. It is too bad for the neighbors, that the planning commission didn't do a better job and really too bad they were allowed to put in private streets with no setback that allowed for onsite parking other than garages.

I believe that Palo Alto should have a realistic master plan and stick to it, instead of making compromises for whatever builder comes along, which results in patchwork developments and little respect for existing neighborhoods. I also think that the city's existing staff advised by knowledgeable residents should be able to come up with such a plan. I don't understand what outside consultants bring to the party, other than high fees.

Posted by Douglas Moran, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Douglas Moran is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

A warning indicator on the background knowledge in the report:

The article reports "... recent closures of Albertson's supermarkets at Alma Plaza and Edgewood Plaza 'eroded grocery store spending in Palo Alto and contributed to the loss of other retail stores at those shopping centers,' the report states."

At Alma Plaza, Lucky/Albertsons/McNellis _forced_ the other retailers out, refusing to renew their leases. That the report's authors apparently are unaware that various retailers continued to do good business there despite the closed grocery store, failure to maintain the facilities, ... suggests that the report may under-estimate the unsatisfied demand for various types of retail.

Posted by liberty, a resident of the Downtown North neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 5:41 pm

Marie believes a 30,000 sqft grocery store would be better than a 40,000 sqft grocery store. I think a 26,000 sqft store would be best, and my neighbor Joe thinks that a 52,000 sqft store would be best. Bill down the street really wants it to be 20,000 sqft because he doesn’t like “Big box stores”.

But now I’m starting to think that a 40,000 sqft grocery store will be better than no grocery store at all.

Posted by Tim, a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 6:31 pm

Time for East Palo Alto to build a super Safeway like Menlo Park did. It would fill the void left by the closing of Albertsons by Hwy 101.

Posted by EcoMama, a resident of the Community Center neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 7:54 pm

I think that some of this problem goes away when Trader Joe's opens at T&C. However, I would LOVE to see a good little grocery store go into Edgewood Plaza. I didn't live here when there was an Albertson's, but I would've loved the convenience. I'm way North in PA, and I drive to Safeway on El Camino in Menlo Park for the bulk of my groceries -- it's as close as the Midtown one, which, IMHO, is total crap (stuff is often expired, the employees are grumpy, etc.). I would even go to a grocer in the Ikea plaza were there one... a SuperTarget would be great there!

I also second the gas station problem -- we have one in North PA, but it's costly as it's the only one... where else IS there to get gas in PA? There's nothing in midtown now...

As for car dealerships -- what a waste of space THAT would be! Puh-leez.

Posted by YSK, a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood, on May 15, 2009 at 8:30 pm

I miss Liddicoats. The smell of produce, the old wooden floor .... it was great!

Posted by Laurie, a resident of Stanford, on May 16, 2009 at 1:35 am

I really miss my favorite mechanic, Eddie, from the Midtown gas station. He was very competent and kept my car running like a sewing machine. The station was convenient and the owner was nice. Ah, the good ol days.

Posted by Marvin, a resident of the Charleston Gardens neighborhood, on May 16, 2009 at 9:00 am

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Posted by Eileen, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 16, 2009 at 9:17 am

It is hard to escape the thought that city of Palo Alto does not really care about it's residents quality of life. High density housing continues to be approved, and yet there is no room in the school district for any more population. It is virtually impossible to buy gas at an affordable convenient gas station within the city limits. Most of us are doing our grocery shopping out of the city limits, for all the reasons already listed here. Our library system is one of the worst in this area. It doesn't seem to matter who we vote for either. These ridiculous studies keep getting bought and paid for, and the council, planning commission, etc.. keep achieving nothing for the city's inhabitants.

Posted by floyd, a resident of the Green Acres neighborhood, on May 16, 2009 at 10:03 am

No, I don't want Palo alto to look like Mt. View. We have enough problems of our own. We shop at Piazza's mostly. Driving all over for 'bargains' doesn't seem to me to make much sense, but then we only shop for two.

I would have done the survey for a lot less and the answer would have been instantaneous. Who authorized this nonsense?

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on May 16, 2009 at 10:55 am

Having spoken with many people on this topic recently, I think the responses fall into two categories.

The first category is like floyd above. These tend to be older people or empty nesters. They have lived in Palo Alto for 20+ years and miss some of the old conveniences, like the Co-Op market and Bergstroms, which are long gone. They are not buying many things for their homes or buying themselves lots of clothes and they prefer to frequent the businesses they have used for years. There are many people like this in Palo Alto, but as they age and move on, their views are also aging and moving on.

The second category are those who have moved in with families or are yet to have started having children. These people have come from places where it made sense to have cars and drive to one stop shopping centers - sometimes with plenty of variety of stores or else with one huge store that did everything. These people like to be able to shop for groceries only once a week or less apart from running out ofstaples or something for a quick dinner when plans change. These people tend to have families and busy lives. They tend to need good quality at affordable prices and want to be able to buy diapers and a gallon of milk at the same stop.

There is nothing wrong with the views of the first group. They like doing things their way and are reluctant to change. The second viewpoint looks on shopping, whether for groceries or other necessities, as chores or something to get done without too much effort. Both groups are definitely the norm in their demographic. As time goes on, the first group will become less in numbers and the latter group will predominate. At present, Palo Alto is geared up for the first group with a sprinkling of designer markets like Trader Joe's and Piazzas for the Yuppies among the second group. The latter group is not being catered to and although there are some that like the idea of always shopping at TJs and Piazzas, very few will actually find these stores always meeting all their needs and do shop outside Palo Alto also.

The new TJs at T & C (whenever it may arrive) may do well as customers will use them instead of the TJs in Mountain View or Menlo Park, but they will not fill the niche of a need for a full sized grocery store. The MP Safeway has given us a taste for what can be a great shopping experience and getting one into Palo Alto should be high on the Council's list of priorities. Not another small grocery store please, but one that can be a fabulous amenity.

Posted by Douglas Moran, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on May 16, 2009 at 11:59 am
Douglas Moran is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

RE: Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood"

This thread focused on grocery stores, but the report focused on retail. From the overview over the report--and having seen earlier similar reports--my sense is that the reports primary focus is on sales tax revenue for the City. Note that the article focuses on "sales leakage". Remember that sales tax revenue is a critical component of the City's budget and one where a City policy could actually increase revenue. Shopping in neighboring cities means that PA residents are paying for those cities services and facilities.

The City's "policy" for at least two decades has been to assist developers in doing whatever they want. While other cities actively recruit retailers, Palo Alto's city government not only refuses to do so, but has a reputation for behaving cavalierly towards retailers trying to locate here.

Palo Alto moans about the need for more sales tax and the profile of where the taxes come is very different from other cities and has glaring deficiencies, but the ultimate response from the City has been effectively "Whatever." For example, my recollection of the most recent Top-10 sales tax generators included two gas stations, only one company in Stanford Research Park. Although the business units in SRP generate massive sales, the common practice is to assign the sales tax to the location servicing the sale (a sales office, typically not Palo Alto) not the location of the unit that closed the sale (often in Palo Alto). Although there has been repeated _talk_ about trying to get these businesses to more appropriately apportion their sales tax, I haven't heard of any such _effort_.

Posted by neighbor, a resident of another community, on May 16, 2009 at 12:31 pm

Oh lordy, this discussion is such great entertainment -- so silly really. There are no stores in PA because the NIMBY "Palo Alto Process" chases out all retail.

Now you have bupkus in your backyard.

Posted by brian wilson, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 16, 2009 at 6:36 pm

Good luck Palo Alto in your endeavors! Do not look to the city council or city manager for leadership in solving your many problems. Godspeed!

Posted by Just Thinkin', a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 17, 2009 at 3:36 pm

RE: Trader Joe's -

As the bulk of their good are food items, sale tax - regardless of their gross, will be skimpy at best.

Posted by Crescent Park Dad, a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on May 17, 2009 at 4:45 pm

To contribute to the overwhelming majority: We buy 95% of our groceries at two stores: MP Safeway and MV Costco. With two active teenagers, we're finding that we go to Costco almost every week.

Midtown Safeway is used for last-minute/urgent purchases. The store is too small and does not stock many items other than the smallest packages (e.g., cereal). The produce section has the basics, but that's it. Parking stinks there.

And to the idiot city council member who thinks he knows the grocery business because he worked at a grocery store 30-40 years ago when he was in college...you are so wrong about shopping hours and demand. There are tons of people shopping on Sundays - for most families, that's the only day where they don't have a bunch of activities, etc.

Give me a break...

Though a little more pricey than Safeway, Andronico's at least offers very nice produce and a nice deli and meat section.

Whole Paycheck, er Whole Foods... no Wheaties = no shopping there.

T&C TJ will be a very welcome addition to our shopping routine. We have found that MP TJ prices for common items (produce, dairy, etc.) are the same as the MP Safeway. The downside is that they do not sell "name brand" items --- but for everyday conveniences, the store will do nicely.

Posted by undrgrndgirl, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on May 17, 2009 at 9:52 pm

what derth of grocery stores...there's mollie stones, piazza's, safeway & whole foods and trader joe's is coming to t & c...having come back to p.a. from a place that sports TWO walmart super stores and nothing else, it's nice to have such nice groceries to shop. however, i was sad to see the arco (next to winterlodge) is gone...and i wish there were a good deli in midtown...

Posted by Marvin, a resident of the Charleston Gardens neighborhood, on May 18, 2009 at 8:57 am

Why did the editors remove part of my post where I pointed out that Mr Moran's claim regarding comments made by the developer's consultant was based on a letter that Mr Moran himself wrote. I would think that a claim of misleading testimony should be supported by independent facts, not a letter written by the person making the claim himself.

Posted by Ned, a resident of Woodside, on May 18, 2009 at 7:51 pm

Grocery stores do huge feasability studies before opening a store somewhere. They probably don't want to open shop on some quiet corner of the city where no one except local residents pass by. Likely, they would want to be on El Camino. The problem is, there is a Safeway a couple miles up in MP and most ElCo land in PA is the domain of Stanford and Paly, or else the store would need to rip up a huge block of businesses. It is much more profitable to rip apart a chunk of ElCo and redevelop as higher density condos, no one in their right mind would trade in the margins of milk, eggs and milk for the high profits of flipping property in the Paly/Gunn school district.

What was that billboard a few years ago? Redwood City, Palo Alto without the attitude? I think there are about 7 grocery stores tucked around RC, with a fun downtown in the summers. Downtown Palo Alto, blah..Only if you want a taste of SF's Civic Center, mixed in with 500 rug stores.

Posted by Jake, a resident of another community, on May 18, 2009 at 11:00 pm

Please somebody tell me the City Council did not spend money (which obviously could be used for more important vital functions) for this so called study!!

Palo Alto and Stanford combined have what 80,000-100,000 residents. Last time I checked people still eat food. That many people need to shop for food that is affordable.

The City Council and some residents have fought against and stopped any large improvment or new building of grocery stores for many many years.

People in Palo Alto go to Menlo Park and Mountain View to shop, not because they like driving! It's because they have very few options due to the City Councils decissions! they are more concerned with carbon footprints. I'm no think tank fellow but I'm pretty sure driving to Menlo Park and Mountain View to get milk, bread, cereal, fruit, veggies, eggs, etc at a normal price is making my carbon foot print BIGGER!

But Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo lets not build just one normal sized grocery store in the whole entire city, that would be so non Palo Alto and Redwood Cityish.

So lets all pretend we don't see eachother shopping in surrounding cities for the basics.

Posted by bru, a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on May 28, 2009 at 1:12 pm
bru is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

> I think that some of this problem goes away when Trader Joe's opens at T&C.

The parking situation in T&C is going to be nasty.

T&C market used to be great ... anyone remember that? Now it is a Long's ... how many Longs and Walgreens do we need around here?

There used to be All American market on El Camino down near Barron Park I think, and then there was Co-op on San Antonio and Midtown.

I like the high-end places like Molly Stones, Whole Foods, but some of the quality has gone down in my opinion while the prices keep going up, and sometimes they are too exclusive to carry the simple things that other stores have.

And then they closed the Edgewood Lucky/Albertson's, and who knows when there will ever be anything there again?

Menlo Park Safeway is good. Midtown Safeway does not have a lot of stuff I like.

This city is changing for the worse as some have mentioned. The things people like do not seem to be affordable for those who do the planning. Wonder why quality of life is not considered and what is instead?