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U.S. high schools falling behind internationally
Dropouts cost billions in lost earnings, crime expenses, former West Virginia governor tells Stanford audience

by Chris Kenrick
Palo Alto Online Staff

Posted by Kate, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Apr 7, 2009 at 9:58 am

I was a secondary high school teacher for years in another part of the country - and the 'atmosphere' was different with the students than it is here. . In one school the students wore uniforms and the entire scene was academic achievement.. In the public schools, a dress code was enforced - there was respect, a good atmosphere, etc. NO baggy pants, baseball caps in class, sloppy clothes and $400 Nikes. Obama thinks that college is for everyone. It isn't. This country needs skilled workers who may or may not have a degree. There are many hospital positions that do not take a 4-year degree in nursing

We need skilled auto mechanics, skilled tree trimmers, expert barbers, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, furnace technicians, roofers, lab techs, operating room technicians, concrete and paver installers, and all the other myriad services that people need. And farmers. Bus and truck drivers, airport personnel, not just pilots - but baggage handlers (careful ones) and the list goes on. There is this idea that in order to get ahead, a college degree is needed. Ask the laid off employees of Washington Mutual.

Posted by Carlos, a resident of the Green Acres neighborhood, on Apr 7, 2009 at 10:43 am

An article likes this highlights two topics which have been extensively discussed by this forum. I don't have the 'right' answers, but I've noticed people get quite emotional and we never seem to have an honest/deep discussion about them:

1. Students who are hopelessly falling behind in the PAUSD: should we allocate scarce resources to cater to the lowest common denominator, or should we have the district allocate the same level of resources/attention to all students, and let nature take its natural course. Remember that equal opportunities never meant equal results.

2. The new Math textbooks adopted by the district: Are we being fair to the next generation and challenging them enough to compete in a global marketplace, academically and professionally?

Posted by resident, a resident of the Charleston Meadows neighborhood, on Apr 7, 2009 at 11:00 am

I came from india as a graduate studant forty years ago. College education is very affordable there.But parents take lot of interest in childrens education. Because of good study habits, understanding the importance of top education ,diciplin in schools,academic compitition betwin students they do well to make it to colleges.After that they come to america for graduate study . In america college education is very expencive.Lot of studants borrow the lone.As soon as they graduate payments start.So they need to take a job and meny cases no grad schools.In this country we need affoerdable univercities to every one. Perents should take interest in their childrens education,help them for collage expences. American studants are also smart and bright.Do not degread them.

Posted by Martin Engel, a resident of Menlo Park, on Apr 7, 2009 at 11:26 am

Ah, yes. The State with the high-speed trains and the low-speed schools. Boy, do we have our priorities in order!

Posted by A Noun Ea Mus, a resident of the Professorville neighborhood, on Apr 7, 2009 at 11:29 am

Kate said..."We need skilled auto mechanics, skilled tree trimmers, expert barbers, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, furnace technicians, roofers, lab techs, operating room technicians, concrete and paver installers, and all the other myriad services that people need. And farmers. Bus and truck drivers, airport personnel, not just pilots - but baggage handlers (careful ones) and the list goes on. There is this idea that in order to get ahead, a college degree is needed."

OK, and would you agree that ALL these people deserve to make a living wage, with full health benefits? Or should they all work in low wage, non-union jobs, with no benefits? Think how cheap our services are now, would you want to change that? You must remember that while Obama is championing the hope that all can achieve college, I doubt he seriously thinks all will accomplish that. That is why he is supporting the revival of unions to raise the floor for all.

But take heart! Those millions of drop outs will be your baggage handlers (whom ye may chastise for dropping your luggage and not being careful), will fight in your wars, will support the prison-industrial complex, etc.

Therein lies the rub. Of course not everyone can or will go to college, and especially so until we are able to configure society such that early and robust education gets the full support needed for such. But for the world we've created, a college degree is necessary if one wants to elevate onself above the "working poor". Archie Bunker (factory worker who HAD a job, could afford a home, wife stayed home, etc.) is no more.

Posted by citizen, a resident of the Greenmeadow neighborhood, on Apr 7, 2009 at 2:16 pm

Living wage without a college degree? Be a firefighter! Salary range in Palo Alto is $80,779 (fire fighter) to 117,000 (captain), WITHOUT overtime -- and there's plenty of that to go around.

Beginning July 1, 2009, if the union insists on the 4% raise for firefighters and 5% for captains negotiated by the union in better times, the range will be $84,010 - $122,850, plus the 9% paid by the city to PERS for retirement, retirement at age 50 at a rate of 3% per year of service (e.g., retire as captain at age 50 with 20yrs of service with an annual retirement benefit of $73,710, with COL annual raises from PERS). That retirement figure doesn't count the full medical for you and your family at retirement, dental insurance, and the opportunity for a second career. And we wonder why the City of Palo Alto is having financial problems????

Police are compensated even more. Fire services are 16% of our budget. The entire community supports fair compensation for city employees, especially police and firefighters, but things are getting out of hand.

Posted by resident of Midtown, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Apr 7, 2009 at 2:54 pm

I couldn't agree more with the resident from Greenmeadow. I think it's outrageous that the firefighters aren't tightening their very substantial belts to help with a city budget deficit.

Posted by Alice Smith, a resident of the Green Acres neighborhood, on Apr 7, 2009 at 3:11 pm

The ACLU is holding a public forum on School to Prison Pipeline on May 19th, at 3 pm at the First Presbyterian Church, 1140 Cowper. The lower educational standards, lack of adequate resources to help children from the time they are born, to have the appropriate attention to meet their particular needs is a tragedy we could avoid with reassessment of priorities.

Posted by Lou Moffett, a resident of Menlo Park, on Apr 7, 2009 at 3:48 pm

What we need is an economy that sustains everyone, regardless of their educational achievement. College is not for everyone, but a solid high school education is a must to maintain an effective democracy. Besides,

baggage handlers need to make change, balance check books, read and understand contracts, read and understand medication labels, etc. Teachers can teach, but they cannot learn for the student. Families and communities need to insist on adequate learning through high school.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Apr 7, 2009 at 5:13 pm

I am really surprised reading these comments.

We are falling behind in math and science. This means that in future it is going to be foreign educated people who will have to immigrate here to take over the leadership in our innovative industries. Possibly, the future engineers, scientists, are even now doing well in their foreign high schools and will come here and take the best jobs from our own students.

The danger is that our own future graduates will not be able to distinguish themselves enough against the foreign educated immigrants to get the good jobs or even lead the companies that these foreigners work for.

This message is very clear. Unless we want our children to be the baggage handlers of foreign run airlines, the packers of our high tech gadgets developed here by foreign nationals on visas, etc. etc., then we need to improve our educational standards.

This is not dragging up the bottom, lower achievers. This is about teaching marketable skills to our high achievers. It means that we must teach math and science to a higher level and forget about some of the feely touchy liberal arts that makes high school fun and concentrate on state of the art technology in our schools and teach the capable students with the best available to reach their full potential.

We should be improving our math, science, I T, classes and forget about the glass blowing and drama. This is a warning to us and we should take heed before it is too late.

Posted by Equity is part of the solution, a resident of the Downtown North neighborhood, on Apr 7, 2009 at 9:23 pm

Carlos,

you have a point, this brings up the Everyday math debate, and also equity in education issues.

together with Resident's post about the Drama vs more Math.

1) If there would be less tinkering around with the Math curriculum, maybe there could be more time left to teach Math.

2) If there was equity in education, the pool of potential Math enabled students would be bigger, and actually make a difference for the country's economy. As it is, putting all eggs on the elite is not enough. It's a numbers game.

3) Drama does not hurt, and neither does glass blowing, but it does hurt if it's a way out for the students you've given up on for Math and Science.

Every student should count, and equity is part of the solution. Unless there is equity, the numbers won't work. On that note, all the laning (struggling, middle, high achieving) that goes on here is another time pit that should keep everyone going around in circles for a long time.

Posted by paly student, a resident of the Embarcadero Oaks/Leland neighborhood, on Apr 8, 2009 at 8:07 am

To have great math and science students, we need great math and science teachers who care if the students learn.

Palo Alto has some great teachers, some ok and too many terrible. Check out the student drop rate for Biology, there is not a single good Bio teacher at Paly. Too many kids have to teach themselves math from the books because the teachers don't spend time explaining. They explain things once and thats it. Its too easy for kids to give up because they don't think the teachers care if they learn or not.

Posted by Walter_E_Wallis, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Apr 8, 2009 at 8:55 am
Walter_E_Wallis is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

Perhaps we should go back to educating individuals instead of groups or classes.

Posted by concerned, a resident of the College Terrace neighborhood, on Apr 8, 2009 at 9:44 am

Math starts in elelmentary school. I agree with Carlos and Equity. It is a shame that PAUSD is recommending Everyday Math textbooks that were rejected by several school districts because of poor results. Some parents have started a petition to have the district evaluate other textbooks. Take a look and sign up.

Web Link

Also, people like Carlos, Equity should write an email to the school board members to let them know your thoughts on the textbooks. They are looking for parent input before they vote on the textbooks.

mcaswell@pausd.org, bklausner@pausd.org, bmitchell@pausd.org, dtom@pausd.org, ctownsend@pausd.org

Posted by AG, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Apr 8, 2009 at 10:47 am

I cannot believe the two comments about firefighter and police officer salaries. Would the two people who posted these comments want to put their lives on the line for the rest of us? Thanks to them, lives are being saved every day. I would gladly pay them more!

For your information, even with the salaries that they make, our firefighters and police officers cannot afford to live in Palo Alto or near Palo Alto.

Posted by resident, a resident of the Adobe-Meadows neighborhood, on Apr 8, 2009 at 10:54 am

I find it amusing that while we bicker over mere tens of thousands of dollars of salaries getting paid to firefighters, police officers and ambulance workers who serve the community, put their lives on the line to keep us safe, we Californians would put up billions to create a mythological train (i.e., HSR).

While our children fall behind in math and science, we readily put up money for senior games and farmers markets.

Where are our priorities?

Posted by resident, a resident of the Charleston Meadows neighborhood, on Apr 8, 2009 at 12:36 pm

Firefiters, police, paramedics-all these people are vital organs of our comunities.They are giving their lives to keep us safe.They need to get paid well. We should bleme the goverment people who take the big pay and benefits, even after retirment and do not work as mouch they should.In this economy we need cut back on these people and spend that money for sefty and education.Also we need teachers who are not only well trend but who take pride in teaching students and not only that parents also need to take the responcibility .Diciplin and good habits come from home first. We bring the children in this world. They are the future.They look at us for proper guideance.

Posted by Friendly Neighbor, a resident of the Barron Park neighborhood, on Apr 8, 2009 at 1:20 pm

I am amazed. Come from Europe, where education was a shared effort between school AND family. Let the strong student bloom, but don’t cherish the low performers, just give them an equal chance.

I agree that college education is not for everyone. It should be based on equal student ability, not on a quata for “disadvantaged”. Would you like to be treated by “disadvantaged” professional?

New math curriculum is a joke. Kids in Europe, Asia are 2-3 years ahead. Here we are, all concern about better scores, and trying to work harder with kids who are pulling us back. In the classroom we had a girl who is struggling with the grade level. School assigned a teacher assistant for the whole year just for 1 girl, not to learn, but stop disturbing other kids. Who is talking about elite? Why not help the achievers? Kids who are capable and interested? We will raise leaders who will create new work spaces, improve economy, etc. I read about one successful curriculum with proven results, that district rejected because it didn’t have Spanish instructions?! Use international data and experience to see how the other countries/states/districts/schools are succeeding…

Collecting and equally sharing among everybody reminds me a communism era from my early childhood. Brrrr…Didn’t work, proofed historically.

And yes, let’s pay to all people who are risking lives for all of us – thank you firefighters, police officers, medical workers!

Posted by Mike, a resident of the Crescent Park neighborhood, on Apr 8, 2009 at 3:03 pm

Those of you who have expressed the need to pay lots and lots for firefighters and police have a real opportunity here: write checks to the city specifically for them. Nobody is stopping you if you believe its right.

Not everybody should go to college. And not everybody has the same potential to begin with. There should be no dishonor in learning a trade. And guess what? Most of those jobs are not going to be outsourced. Plumber, electrician, mechanic, gardener

The guy that owns the company providing my gardening crew owns a nice home, has a $100K sports car, and a weekend house in the mountains.

We have the right to the pursuit of happiness, not the right to have happiness provided. I don't think we need the ACLU to make sure the people they select are getting paid enough.

Posted by Resident, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Apr 8, 2009 at 4:44 pm

This is incredible. The report says that US high schools are falling behind internationally. The only discussion here appears to be on how well paid our service employees are paid and if it is enough.

There is one student who has weighed in and has just been ignored. The students themselves appear to want to do well, asking for great teachers who care, and no one is listening.

Paly student. I agree with you about biology teachers. My only advice may be to go to the board meetings, write out a card for your 3 minutes allotted time, and tell the board how you feel. You can also email the board and Skelly. This may take a great deal of courage, but sometimes we have to stand up for what we want to get.

The BoE may listen to you more than the adults reading here.

Posted by Outside Observer, a resident of another community, on Apr 8, 2009 at 9:40 pm

Quote from the article:

"Only about 58 percent of Hispanic students and 53 percent of African-American students will graduate on time with a regular diploma compared with 80 percent of Asian students and 76 percent of white students, Wise said."

This is just one "unintended consequence" of decades of liberal social engineering to create and sustain a government dependent class in order to retain political power.

Posted by Walter_E_Wallis, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Apr 9, 2009 at 3:13 am
Walter_E_Wallis is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

The academic burden of an electrician or plumber apprenticeship is more rigorous than that of most liberal arts degrees.

Posted by Resident, a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood, on Apr 9, 2009 at 5:09 am

Right on Walter! And we are losing students going into traditional trade jobs, so all we have left are unskilled workers.

I personally admire the students who study to become skilled mechanics. I know one boy at West Valley who is studying to become a certified Honda mechanic. I predict that wood crafters and carpenters will be in high demand as people start to wise up to the junk China has been selling us through Pottery Barn, Ikea, Target, and Restoration Hardware. It is difficult to find American made furniture.

You should be the guest speaker at graduation for Paly or Gunn.

Posted by Walter_E_Wallis, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Apr 9, 2009 at 9:25 am
Walter_E_Wallis is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

I sometimes regret having hung up my tool pouch. There was the satisfaction flipping the switch and - no smoke. Paly, alma mommy to 2 of my kids and a grandson, would much prefer Michael Moore or Jane Fonda to me.

Posted by Walter_E_Wallis, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Apr 9, 2009 at 11:55 am
Walter_E_Wallis is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

Gunn is, of course, the alma of my Marine grandson.

Posted by maguro_01, a resident of Mountain View, on Apr 9, 2009 at 1:06 pm

US college students are being rational in avoiding fields in engineering and some science since even if they get jobs, they won't have any career path past their thirties - even the good ones.

We know that it's a privilege to brain-drain the world and we get interesting colleagues and good neighbors out of it. But the reality is beyond that - whole job categories are being moved out of the US and US corporations have bought tax subsidies to do it. No other country has turned over skilled immigration to corporations to game and the result is that the US is actually undeveloping with the scale of it.

If individuals applied for visas and Green Cards, not companies, we would have a more natural and competitive job market. People in the US can, and have to, compete on salary and skills. But no one can compete with indenture. It's not that our students are too dumb at all - it's that they are too smart and know the deck is stacked. More and more our economy is high tech and manufactures in, logs and rocks and wheat out. We will probably see some national forests logged to the dirt and strip mined to pay the bills we have incurred borrowing to maintain an illusion and trying to run the world.

ps - My mother, before WWII, taught for years grade school and adult evening classes in Massachusetts. Her students were mostly Portuguese villagers and fishermen from the Canaries and other islands and their children. My impression is that the dropout rate was not high. The standards in arithmetic and English were higher than present ones within the student's 'track'. There was no pretense of providing the students with a life but obviously present temptations weren't there. Most of those temptations now come from having altogether too much money to spend and being approachable (abandoned might be a better word) as a marketing target. We tend to get what we pay for, as several people have noted.

Posted by An Engineer, a resident of the Downtown North neighborhood, on Apr 9, 2009 at 1:43 pm

Funny thing is, USA schools have "been behind the rest of the world" at least since Sputnik, yet the USA continues to be the world leader in technology and innovation. Obviously the school performance metrics are way off.

Posted by Equity is part of the solution, a resident of the Downtown North neighborhood, on Apr 9, 2009 at 1:57 pm

maguro,

Maybe if we look at it the other way around - getting top marks on High School education first, and then fixing the lack of jobs issue, it will be better than giving up on education now because there aren't any jobs anyway?

Posted by Pay Hike For Teachers, a member of the Palo Alto High School community, on Apr 9, 2009 at 2:18 pm

How many people would love to teach but they would rather have a higher income so they choose other careers?

Pay teachers six-figure salaries and we will have better teachers.

Also, ditch tenure. If a teacher is lousy, the teacher should be fired.

Posted by equity is part of the solution, a resident of the Downtown North neighborhood, on Apr 9, 2009 at 2:38 pm

Pay hike for teachers,

how much higher should teacher salaries go? for example in Palo Alto? up by 5%,10%, 20%?

what happens first, ditch tenure, or salaries up?

if "love to teach for more money" would equal "great teachers" it would be so simple.

Posted by Walter_E_Wallis, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Apr 10, 2009 at 7:32 am
Walter_E_Wallis is a member (registered user) of Palo Alto Online

The United States leads the world in technology and innovation, but it also likely leads the world in failed businesses. The free market is better than any government in choosing winners.

Posted by Sharon, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Apr 10, 2009 at 11:52 am

Germany has a system that enables non academic students to learn a trade, the UK is moving to a similar system

The German school system is free and mandatory to age 18.

After the Grundschule (Elementary School, 4 years), students are suggested to three different secondary education schools, on which they have the final say about; a forth type is accompanying an apprenticeship students have to decide on if they haven't reached the age of 18 (usually when having decided for Hauptschule or Realschule, previously):

* Hauptschule - designed for students going into a trade (e.g., carpentry, masonry, etc.) and is finished at the 9th or 10th class.

* Realschule - designed for students going into a profession and is finished at the 10th class.

* Berufsschule - designed for accompanying an apprenticeship after Haupt- or Realschule; mandatory to age 18.

* Gymnasium - designed for students going to university/college and finishes at the 12th (G8) or 13th (G9) class.Web Link

We should have a similar system in the US

Posted by Trade Charter Schules?, a resident of the Downtown North neighborhood, on Apr 10, 2009 at 12:38 pm

Sharon,

The word they all have in common is schule. Lots of schules - imagine more schules under the nearly failed California system? If it was run by the German government, and there were no unions or politicians running all these schules, it could maybe make sense.

Maybe if these schools already existed as charter schools, and vouchers could be used.

You'd at least want some of the people running the trade schules formally trained in such schules. Can you imagine the Carpentry textbooks debate every seven years? I see your point, but it is so far off reality unfortunately.

Posted by Sharon, a resident of the Midtown neighborhood, on Apr 10, 2009 at 1:53 pm

The system in Europe also employs retired trades people, craftsmen, mechanics etc to mentor students.

The system benefits everyone, old and young alike.

In fact in Germany graduates of trade schools out-earn many if not most college graduates through their 20s, 30s and beyond.

The value of 4 year college degree, particularly in liberal arts is grossly overvalued, it is an experience of continual sex and beer leaving graduates unskilled and in need of remedial education and training for any company job.

Firms like IBM, HP, GE spend millions of dollars to get there new college hires functionally literate and basically competent.

Posted by OhlonePar, a resident of the Duveneck/St. Francis neighborhood, on Apr 11, 2009 at 3:12 am

Widespread trade schools in this country don't make a lot of sense. Unlike Europe, people change jobs and careers here several times over the course of their working lives. Some of the early jobs I had no longer exist.

I think there is room for an apprenticeship system, but we need to get kids through high school--the real thing.

Posted by Neal, a resident of the Community Center neighborhood, on Apr 11, 2009 at 6:22 pm

The reason our schools have become "dropout factories" is because we have "dropout" parents. Don't blame the teachers and schools.

Posted by parent, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood, on Apr 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm

Neal,

The "dropout" parents are in turn a result of dropout High Schools. Unless you have been living under a rock, even "quality" districts like this, with many "graduate" parents still have plenty to fix.

Posted by paly student, a resident of the Embarcadero Oaks/Leland neighborhood, on Apr 12, 2009 at 6:08 pm

We also have "dropout" teachers who don't care if their students are learning, even here in wonderful palo alto. Sometime I think my a few of my teachers actually enjoy being roadblocks to learning.

Posted by Interested Parent, a member of the Palo Alto High School community, on Apr 12, 2009 at 8:09 pm

I totally believe you Paly Student.

I would like to know their names, so we can avoid them.

Posted by maguro_01, a resident of Mountain View, on Apr 16, 2009 at 7:10 pm

Posted by Equity "Maybe if we look at it the other way around - getting top marks on High School education first, and then fixing the lack of jobs issue, it will be better than giving up on education now because there aren't any jobs anyway?"

Apologies for not answering. Of course we can agree on that, but it's harder for a young student to do so and to get money from communities for it. College needs to be more rigorous with fewer students but free for residents, IMO. Also many programs in college are specialized enough that they are a serious commitment. Young American Permanent Residents and citizens are unwise to get into most engineering or CS as the fields are presently being shipped out and much of science may follow over a generation. A military leaver or career changer into engineering or CS is most likely to find themselves too old to be hired after graduating in the new field.

The Valley is unlikely to return to where it was even before the bubble though one can't foresee invention and creative enterprise, of course. We are still overpriced. Our country may be near-broke but we shouldn't overlook that it's been damaged as well.

Public schools in the area need to be offering Mandarin at least for any realistic future in the Pac Rim which is where we are. It's failing the children seriously to not have Asian languages genarally available and encourage them.